Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

insideevs.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 267 posts

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#201

Post by olivermuty »

timc3 wrote: post #198
Goz3rr wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The lurch when the transmission shifted during launch was too hard on the transmission, and many of them broke under warranty. Tesla had to replace many transmissions. It was easier to fix the problem on the electric side than the gear side. Seems to me this was more a problem with Teslas build quality or design, because the Porsche Taycan and Audi e-tron GT have a two speed gearbox. From when I drove the e-tron GT…

I can feel it on my Taycan (it’s one of the most powerful models) but it’s not bad at all. Porsche has a lot of experience with gearboxes which probably explains why they can build a reliable one when dealing with the power and torque.

How is the maintenance aspect of this? One of things I like about my EV (Tesla) is that mechanical maintenance is essentially zero, whereas I had to pay 1000 eur every second year to service my Mercedes automatic transmission...

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#202

Post by kvark »

hbarka wrote: post #131

Hyundai, Kia, and Audi EVs have paddle shifters which controls the level of regeneration braking and feels very much like downshifting. One paddle (+) steps up the regen to the point where the “drag” gets progressively stronger. The other paddle (-) steps down regen to 0 where the car can coast and there is no regen drag whatsoever. Note this is not the same as Neutral. The car is always in Drive. The function only a…

When would you actually need to not have the max regen braking? You can always just push the drive pedal slightly to let the car know you aren’t slowing down, instead.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#203

Post by LorenPechtel »

poutine wrote: post #129
kaitai wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

As a former driver of many Audi quattros and a Canadian who lives on top of a hill with a AWD Tesla 3 I can say it's the best handling car in snow that I've driven (given clearance limits of a sedan). The instant reaction speed of its electric traction control to slippage will vastly outperform any manual transmission. You can drive like an idiot with the pedal to the floor and the car sorts itself out.

I haven't encountered snow since my last manual died but that's my understanding of electronic traction control--give the job to the computer that can do a far better job than any human.

When the computer can outperform a human let the computer do it! Only give control of things where at least some drivers can outperform the computer. And, while not relevant to driving, if there's a grey area let the operator hit an override to use it. (Boeing--the plane does what you tell it even if you go outside the envelope. Airbus--the plane stays in the envelope no matter what you tell it to do. The first makes for broken birds, the second means the pilot in trouble can't decide to risk breaking the bird if that's what's needed. If you need 4g to clear terrain you do it even if the bird is only rated for 3g.)

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#204

Post by xxs »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #66
falcor84 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a sidenote, here's a controversial opinion - electrically-powered analog clocks are silly and we should discontinue making them.

Analog clocks use much less power than digital clocks, by virtue of not having to continually emit light. That property may also be desirable for other reasons.

Pretty much - only LCD (no backlight/etc) can rival them.

In my opinion wall clocks that run on a battery are a lot better than any digital clocks perception wise. They are also super cheap to make nowadays. Recently I had to fix one by disassembling it, clear the plastic gears/cogs, and silicone spraying them. Nifty little machines. My only regret would be not having solar battery as a frame. That would extend its battery life immensely, adding a tiny LiFEO4 would make run for decades.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#205

Post by culopatin »

spookthesunset wrote: post #141
culopatin wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing the clutch is good for is to get the tires loose with a clutch kick or to detach the engine drag from the wheels if one so desired.

Wouldn’t a motor be able to chirp the tires all by itself? Dunno how much drag the motor would create if allowed to spin freely…

You need a peak in torque on the wheels usually. Some can depending on how much power they make.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#206

Post by LorenPechtel »

falcolas wrote: post #98
yywwbbn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.

Muscle memory is a bitch. Two things I’ve done going from a manual to an automatic, sometimes a year after: Slam on the brake as if you’re using the clutch. Automatic brake pedals are more than wide enough to accommodate two feet, and attempting to upshift and slamming on the brake instead can really rattle your brain bucket. Throw the automatic into park. Less of an issue these days, but it used to attempt to actual…

I've never pulled that one but I've done a couple of very hard stops coming off the freeway. Long drive, tired, I hear the engine RPMs dropping and my foot comes down on the "clutch" as my hand goes for the gearshift. I learned on a car with a very stiff clutch, I catch the brake pedal and it's going to the floor. (My father had a bad habit of riding the clutch while going through the gears. A mechanic friend deliberately put in a stiffer spring to minimize the damage.)

Smoothly operating a manual has to be muscle memory and whenever you're dealing with muscle memory there's the issue of unintended capture. It doesn't take much to reprogram things like learning the actual working range of *this* clutch but skipping it entirely takes a lot more learning.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#207

Post by xxs »

analog31 wrote: post #138
kaitai wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I stick with a manual transmission -- far better handling in snow. Have not asked my EV peers how it's working for them.

Do you have snow tires? Living in a snowy region, I've learned that nothing makes as big a difference as snow tires -- whether the car has stick, automatic, AWD, whatever. Admittedly, it's hard for me to directly compare stick and automatic because the cars with automatic were also much heavier -- a minivan and a SUV.

North Europe, snow tires are mandatory. That's that - so effectively changing tires twice a year Apr/May and Nov

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#208

Post by xxs »

robryk wrote: post #89
yywwbbn wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to imagine it would take significantly more than 15 minutes for most people to ‘learn’ how to drive an automatic car even if they only drove a manual before.

The UK authorities agree with you: if you pass the exam with a manual car you can use both, but if you pass it with an automatic one, you can only drive automatic ones.

It's the entirety of Europe - manual=both, automatic=automatic only.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#209

Post by LorenPechtel »

jonathanlydall wrote: post #124
Someone1234 wrote: post #2

Seems very similar to paddle shifters in a gas CVT. There's no mechanical connection between the "clutch peddle" and "shifter" to the actual transmission, it is all just fed into a computer and a simulation is created to give the driver a warm fizzy feeling. If this makes people feel better during the transitional phase, I guess that counts for something, but this is a manual car simulation only.

I don’t see the point for EVs, but I actually somewhat regularly use the “gear down” paddle on my Honda Jazz (AKA Fit in other countries) CVT, but not for a “warm fizzy feeling”. It actually “locks” the gears to a particular ratio which allows me to use the engine to keep the car from exceeding a particular speed when coasting down a hill. When I start using the accelerator after, it very quickly switches itself back…

Yup, I've used a paddle shifter in a rental for this very purpose--using the engine as a brake while going downhill.

My Corolla only has two possible downshifts and neither is all that good for holding speed on a downhill but the cruise control is integrated into the system--I can set a speed and the computer will do a pretty good job of using the engine to keep from exceeding it too much and since it's adaptive it will always avoid the car in front even if otherwise it doesn't hold the speed that perfectly. Since I found that out I've never touched the downshifts.

Re: Toyota patents plans for EV with manual transmission and clutch

#210

Post by LorenPechtel »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #126
flyingfences wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is about the feeling of control now. The reason people who still choose manuals do so isn't because of the torque curves -- automatics are now better at handling that -- it's because they like the feeling.

When you're used to a manual, an automatic feels mushy. An EV is directly coupled, so adding a manual transmission makes it more must, rather than less.

Disagree--I used to have that objection with automatics, but the modern ones are good enough I no longer feel that way. Never have I felt my Corolla made the wrong choice about gears.
Post reply on HN