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The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

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Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#201

Post by i_am_proteus »

daveguy wrote: post #197
xyzzyz wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they did that, the consumption would only go up, resulting in even more overdoses. That’s what happened in Portugal, after drug decriminalization — drug consumption there went up significantly (with exception of heroin, which went down, but it also went down in other European countries at the same time which did not decriminalize it). Full on legalization will increase consumption even higher. Of course, one might…

Well, to be fair. Your drug use can't put me in the ICU.

Not directly, but addicted people sometimes turn to violent crime to raise funds, and that violent crime certainly can put you in the ICU.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#202

Post by thaumasiotes »

wirrbel wrote: post #106
tyingq wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the gin->mean, whisky->emotional, etc, is all bunk. But I'm still convinced there's a link between alcohol and violence. If nothing else, the lowered cognitive function and reduced inhibition would mean more opportunity to be angry, and less self control. Like, a drunk person might misinterpret someone accidentally bumping into them as aggression. And would be less likely to suppress the urge to respond…

Reduced inhibition does not support the thesis of increased agression, unless you define aggression to refer to "aggression shown". But I'd overall turn the 'cultural' aspect a little further even. I think I have observed a couple of times people to consume alcohol in order to be able to transgress cultural norms because the cultural norms themselves are 'parametrised' for the sober-drunk states. I.e. get into a figh…

> Reduced inhibition does not support the thesis of increased agression, unless you define aggression to refer to "aggression shown".

So... the normal definition that everyone already uses?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#203

Post by thaumasiotes »

tyingq wrote: post #149
seigando wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's indicative of underlying aggression and can't be extrapolated to other cultures.

I guess, but I'm curious what culture has no aggression at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naked_Empire

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#204

Post by i_am_proteus »

dynm wrote: post #2

Around a week ago, I came across this link here on HN that suggested that there's a new form of meth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28938888 The theory is that new meth is based on a synthesis using a chemical called P2P rather than the old synthesis that used ephedrine. There are claims that this new form of meth is chemically different in some what that started creating schizophrenia around 2017. However, wh…

Thank you for doing the research and writeup.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#205

Post by daveguy »

rsj_hn wrote: post #200
daveguy wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, to be fair. Your drug use can't put me in the ICU.

People trying to steal to get drugs could. People high on drugs certainly could. A lot of Breaking and Entering, for example, is to obtain money to feed a drug habit. For the person doing the stealing, all they care about is the cost of the drug, so plans to regulate and tax meth, well, don't necessarily improve that situation.

Yes. That requires another specific decision to commit a crime. Respiratory viral infection requires no additional decision on part of the viral vector.

I agree there shouldn't be a blanket decriminalization of drug use because it does alter judgement/motivation and make a theft or even violent crime more likely.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#206

Post by rsj_hn »

daveguy wrote: post #205
rsj_hn wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People trying to steal to get drugs could. People high on drugs certainly could. A lot of Breaking and Entering, for example, is to obtain money to feed a drug habit. For the person doing the stealing, all they care about is the cost of the drug, so plans to regulate and tax meth, well, don't necessarily improve that situation.

Yes. That requires another specific decision to commit a crime. Respiratory viral infection requires no additional decision on part of the viral vector. I agree there shouldn't be a blanket decriminalization of drug use because it does alter judgement/motivation and make a theft or even violent crime more likely.

But the harm or benefit of a policy is not measured by how many specific decisions are performed, but rather by the overall effect of the policy on the community, no? So let's just talk about that rather than counting steps between A and B.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#207

Post by roywiggins »

BizarroLand wrote: post #179
R0b0t1 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they separate the culture link from a potential genetic link? Maybe the association exists in a culture because it is a real effect, it just differs between groups.

I've heard (purely anecdotal) rumors that North Korea basically runs on Meth. I'm not sure if that is true but I suppose it would explain a lot.

NK has a lot of meth because the government started producing it for export in the 90s, and in the 2000s it became a sort of cottage industry and culturally normalized.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-58838834

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/12/world/asia/north-korea-cr...

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#208

Post by bananabreakfast »

tyingq wrote: post #154
seigando wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably depends on how specific you get with the term aggression

It sounds like there's a suggestion that cultures where alcohol has no notable effect on overall violence. I'm curious what culture that is.

look at japan. Salarymen get shitfaced on the regular, but you don't hear about drunken street fights in Tokyo do you?

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#209

Post by bananabreakfast »

tyingq wrote: post #95
dcolkitt wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Much of the effects of any intoxicant are culturally constructed. Alcohol is widely known for causing aggression, but this effect doesn’t seem to exist in cultures without that association. Nor does it exist in double-blind studies, yet the placebo group becomes more aggressive. You can start with two chemically identical intoxicants, and either by marketing or random path dependencies one gains a reputation in the s…

I agree that the gin->mean, whisky->emotional, etc, is all bunk. But I'm still convinced there's a link between alcohol and violence. If nothing else, the lowered cognitive function and reduced inhibition would mean more opportunity to be angry, and less self control. Like, a drunk person might misinterpret someone accidentally bumping into them as aggression. And would be less likely to suppress the urge to respond…

I think you're still describing a cultural cause here.

Responding to perceived aggression with your own aggression is not a given. It's a culturally decided response, not an instinctive one.

A good christian is supposed to respond to aggression by "turning the other cheek" and not responding at all. A strict, honor based society might say the only way to respond to aggression is by killing that person.

Western culture falls in between these two. Reduced inhibition simply makes your judgement of the consequences worse so people usually make the choice they want to make (shaped by their culture) and just don't think though what it could mean.

Re: The main thing about Phenylacetone meth is that there's so much of it

#210

Post by daveguy »

rsj_hn wrote: post #206
daveguy wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. That requires another specific decision to commit a crime. Respiratory viral infection requires no additional decision on part of the viral vector. I agree there shouldn't be a blanket decriminalization of drug use because it does alter judgement/motivation and make a theft or even violent crime more likely.

But the harm or benefit of a policy is not measured by how many specific decisions are performed, but rather by the overall effect of the policy on the community, no? So let's just talk about that rather than counting steps between A and B.

The overall harm or benefit to the community is certainly related to how many and likely those bad decisions are that result in a specific harm/benefit.
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