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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#201

Post by whatshisface »

fullstop wrote: post #136
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.

>Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.

"It's a perfect compositor, as long as it is not expected to composite." ;)

Personally I need the ability to open a remote window on my desktop, fingers crossed that someone will add that.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#202

Post by tsujp »

dleslie wrote: post #102
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.

That's not strictly correct. Give the `feature/pgtk` branch from upstream a try, `make` it yourself unless your distro has a binary for it -- that (`make`'d myself) worked for me on Void Linux.

There are also a few forks on GitHub with native wayland patches out there too if `feature/pgtk` doesn't.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#203

Post by eyelidlessness »

londons_explore wrote: post #91
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

> Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites.

Can’t speak to Chromium or Wayland, but Chrome on Mac has this problem for me and I just had to completely disable hardware acceleration.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#204

Post by gnulinux »

DCKing wrote: post #163
londons_explore wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

Why does this distinction matter? Gnome on X works perfectly fine, Gnome on Wayland does not. Why does it matter it to state that Wayland is a protocol, not the implementation?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#205

Post by kevincox »

ilaksh wrote: post #112
varbhat wrote: post #94

I am neither fond of Xorg nor Wayland. I have used both and I see shortcomings of both. Xorg is Overly Bloated/Done without giving much importance to security. On the other hand, Wayland is technically superior , might be more secure than Xorg. But, it's feature parity doesn't match with that of Xorg. Now,i don't think those features must be pushed into Wayland itself. i don't know but something desktop oriented Wayl…

Is there a special privilege or group membership or root or anything required for that screen access API?

It depends on the compositor. Some allow any app to record the screen (bringing us back to X) but most require user approval.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#207

Post by fullstop »

whatshisface wrote: post #201
fullstop wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.

> Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not. "It's a perfect compositor, as long as it is not expected to composite." ;) Personally I need the ability to open a remote window on my desktop, fingers crossed that someone will add that.

I'm pretty sure that it's a bug in Chrome / Chromium since other applications are just fine even when Chrome is being dog slow.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#208

Post by Aardwolf »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #84
Aardwolf wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

I may be mistaken, but PulseAudio doesn't seem to fit that definition at all. Pulse allows for a lot more functionality and modularity than ALSA, the problem people had with it was that it was just really really buggy when it was pushed as the default in a lot of distros.

Was or is? Is, afaik, pulseaudio causes movie players to freeze when using USB audio, I have to use a bluetooth transmitter with 3.5mm jack instead to completely isolate pulseaudio from my headphones so that it doesn't wreak such unwanted havoc

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#209

Post by kuschku »

spijdar wrote: post #184
kuschku wrote: post #14

I’m using a Dell UP2718Q (3840x2160, 144dpi, 60Hz) and a Fujitsu Siemens P17-2 (1024x1280, 96dpi, 75Hz) side by side, and without Wayland this setup isn’t even possible to get working properly. Sadly, KDE still doesn’t support it nicely under Wayland (so I moved to Ubuntu Budgie), but under X11 it’s entirely impossible to run it properly, as except for Qt nothing supports mixed DPI, or mixed refresh rates properly. O…

Professional pentester here - Wayland alone doesn't really do much for you, security wise. It is still very possible for an application simply running under a wayland compositor to do lots of nasty things. The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the…

> This is ... not true, either broadly or generally

I’m saying that because if you ever type in your password, e.g. into a screenlocker, into a terminal with sudo, or an apt-get gui, every application can listen to those input events. Every application has the ability to be a keylogger by default. And with that captured password, it then can either inject input events into your terminal, or run sudo itself.

> The Wayland protocol provides the building blocks for someone to create an Android-like sandboxed environment, but doing so would break every application. Snaps and Flatpak come closer, but still generally miss the mark, since many applications require your entire home directory to be bind mounted in their container.

That’s true, but also not. With X11, even a flatpak without any special permissions or bind mounts can still basically control your system. Just listen for input events until you see the keys "s u d o", then listen until you see something that looks like a password, then wait until the user is not paying attention, and inject virtual input events to start a terminal and inject input events to run "sudo rm -rf /*" with the password you captured earlier.

By making the ability to intercept, record, or inject input events a special API, wayland at least allows flatpaks to be sandboxed at all.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#210

Post by tremon »

Aardwolf wrote: post #56
darkwater wrote: post #11

Wayland is being treated like PulseAudio and systemd before. So, it will probably win its battle, thanks $DEITY.

That's because all three are similar, all three throw away some of the modular unix philosophy and replace it with a system that gives less power to the user.

That's not true for Wayland I think, Wayland is much closer to the Unix philosophy of doing one thing and doing it well: it is a (library implementation of a) local display protocol, and only handles input redirection and display configuration. It uses the kernel for device management, and puts clients fully in control of their own canvas through OpenGL.

It doesn't do output configuration, input management, application window drawing, font rendering, or remoting, all of which X did itself (although modern application rarely made use of that part of X). Those things are delegated to the kernel or to application libraries.

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