Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 233 posts

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#201

Post by thomastjeffery »

iimblack wrote: post #190

I'm going on paternity leave soon and hoping to use the opportunity to learn a new keyboard layout but I'm having a tough time picking which one to learn. I've already got an ergonomic keyboard (Iris) but I still hate the feeling of querty's layout. I run into so many words that just feel bad to type. I think I've narrowed it down to two options (but I'm open to suggestions): Colemak mod-DH and Dvorak. They both take…

When I was at this stage, I tried dvorak, colemak, workman, and norman.

I got sick of typing ls -l with my pinky, so I decided against Dvorak.

I really liked the feel of digraphs in workman and norman.

In the end, I decided I didn't like the h placement in Norman.

After typing with workman for a few years, I'm very glad I learned. Every time I type, I am reminded how much more comfortable it is.

I would recommend you look at what's available, and choose whatever one you like best.

If you are on the fence about two or three, just start learning all of them, and drop the ones you don't like.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#202

Post by thomastjeffery »

jimmar wrote: post #11

I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be beneficial.

That would be interesting.

That being said, RSI isn't there only reason to use an alternate layout.

I've been using workman for a few years now, for comfort. I find it much more comfortable to use.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#203

Post by thomastjeffery »

explorigin wrote: post #171

I've been using Workman for 5 years now and it has been wonderful for reduced stress. The difference between QWERTY and workman has been so dramatic that I haven't needed to take any additional steps at managing forearm/wrist stress. People seem to pontificate about micro-optimizations but the fact is that you're reducing your overall motion of typing by more than half. An ergo keyboard is another way to do that but…

I've been using workman for a few years, and using a keyboardio model01 for about a year.

Both have given a similar and drastic increase to the comfort of typing.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#204

Post by bastardoperator »

nuclear_eclipse wrote: post #31
1MachineElf wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You had me with the FDSA example, but I wonder if that's because I'm also already biased towards Dvorak. Been typing with it since 2016 and loving it so far. Even "ls -l" doesn't bother me anymore - makes me wonder if QWERTY typists have under-developed pinky coordination.

After switching to Dvorak many years ago, I picked up the habits for a lot of shell commands to shift my right over two keys, so that my ring finger could hit the hyphen. `ls -l` is much more comfortable to type with middle-ring-middle than pinky-ring-pinky. I'm sure I've picked up other subtle shifts like that as well, and switching to a split layout keyboard also showed me just how much my hands crossed over for F,…

Ain't nobody got time for that!

alias ll="ls -l"

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#205

Post by thomastjeffery »

jarnagin wrote: post #62

One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple c…

This is why many layouts, workman included, make compromises.

After years of using vim, I learned workman. On top of my qwerty muscle memory, I have qwerty-vim muscle memory to unlearn.

I've gone back and forth, but I've generally given up on using vim. It's missing a feature that to me is a deal breaker: 100% configurable keybinds.

I've been looking into creating my own from-scratch modal keybinds for emacs. I would love something with the features of evil-mode where the user creates their own normal-mode.

Even if a user is using a traditional keyboard with qwerty, it still sucks to be stuck with hardcoded keyboard shortcuts. It would be extremely helpful if configurability were considered a necessity in UI/UX design.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#206

Post by thomastjeffery »

Okkef wrote: post #38

Learning a new layout takes months of training. If you want to improve ergonomics, I would take the following steps; 1. Get as split keyboard for better shoulder posture (ultimate hacking keyboard) 2. Get a column staggered board instead of row staggered for better finger movement and more thumb keys (ergodox or iris keyboard) 3. Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using…

In my experience, getting a better keyboard yielded about the same increase in comfort as learning workman. Doing both has made a huge difference.

One thing you missed that I would consider most important: Get a keyboard that places modifier keys under your thumbs. The thumb/palm keys on my keyboardio model01 are by far my favorite feature.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#207

Post by thomastjeffery »

neves wrote: post #187

Very nice work, I'd like to see the result not with books, but with programming languages. The problem is but you loose a very valuable thing: the ability to use any keyboard. You won't be able to pair program. You'll be very slow when using your mother's computer. The ability to use any keyboard is more valuable than increasing your WPS.

Some people have managed to keep their qwerty muscle memory. I haven't.

To me, it's absolutely worth it. If I'm going somewhere that I might use someone else's system for more than a few minutes, I bring my keyboard.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#208

Post by thomastjeffery »

archseer wrote: post #9

I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman analysis. https://normanlayout.info/about.html It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.

I tried a few different layouts and decided norman is my second favorite.

Workman was slightly more difficult to learn, but that isn't really significant to me.

I've been typing with workman for a few years now, and am very happy with it.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#209

Post by thomastjeffery »

a-p-o wrote: post #16
archseer wrote: post #9

I'm using a similar layout (Norman) that was derived from the Workman analysis. https://normanlayout.info/about.html It was a bit easier to learn because most of the keys are on the same finger as on qwerty, but with the rows swapped. For me the biggest problem with using an alternate layout is that the hjkl vim movement keys are scattered.

I consider my .vimrc-fu as only beginner, but can't you remap the keys so NIOH act as HJKL?

You pretty quickly run into dependency hell.

You still want i mapped somewhere. Do you put that on qwerty-i/norman-r? Now where do you put r? qwerty-r/norman-f? Where do you put f? qwerty-f/norman-t?

It's a mess. It would be much better if commands weren't so tightly associated with keys in vim.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#210

Post by thomastjeffery »

zetalemur wrote: post #145

Many years ago I too had pain in my wrists while doing lots of programming work. For me the game changer was using Vim and mapping ESC to jj in both the editor and the shell (via .inputrc). In fact I mostly use Vim because of the provided ergonomics, the fast editing capabilities are just the cherry on the cake. In my opinion the main culprit are modifier keys (e.g. by default the shell uses emacs bindings and you do…

Modifier keys suck on traditional keyboards.

Modifier keys are great when they are put under your thumbs.

Post reply on HN