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Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

workmanlayout.org

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Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#61

Post by Okkef »

trisiak wrote: post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

This is so true!

There are so many quick wins to improve posture before the high-effort micro optimization of changing layouts:

- split the keyboard for better shoulder posture (eg ultimate hacking keyboard but don't stop here)

- Get a column staggered board with more thumb keys instead of row staggered for better finger movement (ergodox or iris keyboard)

- Get rid of the num row and limit movement for fingers to one key in any direction using layers to simulate the missing keys (corne or kyria)

- A sculpted and tented keyboard allows the arm to untwist. These keyboards are dish shaped which moves keys closer to your fingers. Examples are the kinesis, dactyl, or Tightyl (my own creation).

I think the sweet spot for most people is the column staggered split layout.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#62

Post by jarnagin »

One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple copy and paste, vim keybindings, shell commands, etc., using these sorts of tools from other layouts often feels much more tedious than it does in QWERTY. So I’d caution against adopting a new layout naively, unless you’re also willing to accept that you may have to also begin adapting your environment to your new layout in addition to learning the new board.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#63

Post by elric »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #53
leotaku wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My country uses the QWERTZ layout which has dedicated keys for German umlauts. I mostly type in English however, so I've bound "([{" to "öäü". I now type umlauts using "AltGr+oau". It's definitely not a perfect solution, but it has worked well for me so far.

AZERTY (French) here with numbers accessed through shift and brackets through AltGR. This is a horrendous layout. Bonus points for it being slightly different on Mac and PC. I have absolutely no idea how people can use this layout for programming without going crazy. I don't program full time, I mostly do sysadmin work, and even if I don't think that typing speed is a limiting factor for how much code I can write, I…

I use AZERTY for programming. It's easy. ,();: can be accessed without any modifiers. []{} require a modifier.

If you're typing numbers frequently and don't have a numpad, then it seems like that would be a worth while investment.

I find the physical shape of the keyboard to be a much more important factor than the layout. Tilted splits are where it's at for me.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#64

Post by rgoulter »

stormdennis wrote: post #52

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so mu…

> Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements?

Yes, it will take a significant amount of effort to change over to Dvorak layout.

You're unlikely to see speed improvements with Dvorak without continuous effort. However, IMO, Dvorak feels a lot nicer to type with than qwerty.

IME: I learned Dvorak around 5 years ago, but switched back to qwerty. A few weeks ago, decided to use Dvorak again. There's a "like riding a bike" quality to it; although I'd recommend against using different layouts with the same physical keyboard.

> is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so much like += etc

IMO no. (They're infrequently used in either qwerty or dvorak, which makes sense to me. I don't notice one as better/worse than the other).

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#65

Post by unkulunkulu »

jarnagin wrote: post #62

One thing that often goes unmentioned when I see discussions about these sorts of alternate layouts is that, particularly for programmers, the keyboard isn’t just a simple device for entering text, it’s the mechanism through which we interact with our computing environment, and most tooling is either specifically or unintentionally designed to enhance the productivity of people typing in QWERTY. Whether it’s simple c…

Yes, there is some idiosyncrasy with hotkeys, vim is quite ok (Dvorak user here). Overall I remember it being crazy for some time but currently I’m quite happy with the results in entering text and programming. For hotkeys I still have to make guesses here and there because some programs expect them to be pressed “as in qwerty”, others “as in dvorak”.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#66

Post by toomanybeersies »

trisiak wrote: post #51

I too suffered from wrist pain and fatigue in the past. The experimentation with different layouts helped a little but it felt like micro-optimization. What actually resolved the problem was switching to an unorthodox ergonomic keyboard where none of the keys required straining or unnecessary effort (kinesis advantage, using a different one these days). Also, most common problems were caused by placement of special k…

I've had pretty bad hand/wrist pain some days from overusing the command key on my macbook.

The solution for me has been to try and use the right-hand side special keys when possible, but it's hard to break the habit of using my left hand for special keys after 20 years of doing it.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#67

Post by alpaca128 »

stormdennis wrote: post #52

I used hunt and peck for years before learning to touch type. After four years of touch type I'm still fairly crap. If I try to speed up i commonly get the letter order wrong of two successive letters. I'm a lot better than hunt and peck but I'm kind of disappointed. Would it be a major job moving to Dvorak and can you expect big improvements? Also is it better for the keys programmers use that others don't use so mu…

In my experience it pays off to do a bit of typing practice every day for a few weeks. It noticably made me a bit faster and more accurate and it wasn't even remotely as hard and time-consuming as switching the layout.

I think learning Dvorak etc. doesn't pay off at all and qwerty actually isn't as bad as people say(the real problems of mainstream keyboards are present in Dvorak etc. as well). Most people just don't consciously practice it regularly.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#68

Post by jacobsenscott »

jimmar wrote: post #11

I'd love to see a rigorous analysis of whether this type of keyboard layout really reduces repetitive stress injuries. The metrics presented are interesting, but the reduced finger movement could be a bug rather than a feature. Small micro-stretching by having to reach for keys could actually be beneficial.

It would be very difficult to get enough people to switch layouts to do any kind of study. But you can probably look to gaming, where they optimize the layouts of the keys/gamepads and there's plenty of RSI. I think changing keyboard layout is unlikely to have any benefit. Especially since you need to spend an extra hour or two a day on typing drills to become productive. That must offset any benefit.

Re: Workman Keyboard Layout (2010)

#70

Post by clarry »

cryptos wrote: post #48

I appreciate such efforts and consider QWERTY more or less a historical accident. But how do you actually use these layouts? Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically? But what about notebooks then where this is often not possible? Or do you train you brain to remember the key positions so that it doesn't matter what character is printed on a key? But how do you _learn_ the layout then? Th…

> Do you pull the keys from your keyboard and rearrange them physically?

Imo, that's a terrible idea. It just encourages the bad habit of looking at the keyboard. Learn to touch type, memorize the layout.

> But again: how to learn it efficiently without a lot of frustrating typing errors?

I don't think there's any way to avoid frustrating typing errors (except patience), but there are programs for training touch typing. Pick a weekend (or longer holiday), switch your layout, put a cheatsheet on the screen or print one out[1], start hammering your favorite touch typing program. Don't switch back to your original layout! The temptation to go back is huge since typing is so slow and frustrating at first. Just don't.

[1] A cheatsheet that is not literally on your keycaps is much harder to "cheat" with. Which means you can throw it away in a day or two because it'll no longer be useful; recalling the layout from memory will be faster.

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