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MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

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201–210 of 258 posts

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#201
post #149

I'm probably going to pay this a lot more attention now than I would have purely because I find Moxie really quite impressive all the way up to his patient, reasoned interactions with people around here.

Most people with reasoned interactions around here want to sell something...

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#202
post #25

To repeat an earlier comment, this scheme encourages a centralization of trust into a private key managed by processor manufacturers. You might say that by integrating SGX mechanisms into your security model, you create a set of 'feudal lords' [1] who can wield their power over you. A manufacturer may 'legitimately' establish an enclave in your most trusted hardware which you may not audit or even measure. And if tha…

I still think it's an interesting approach. If you want to be more efficient and less wasteful than Bitcoin, at some point trust has to come into play. And reducing your trust to the manufacturers of secure enclaves (whose products can also be audited to a degree) is surely an improvement still, even if it doesn't have the radical threat model of conventional cryptocurrencies (which inevitably run into scaling proble…

You can either audit something fully or not at all. Your secure enclaves cannot be audited, it would be a pointless task, if you find nothing it just means it could be in the area you cannot audit. if you do find something then it almost guarantees that something else exists in the secure enclaves.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#203
post #13

So, it's using DRM to hide the blockchain, is that right?

So if the coin's market cap were higher than Intel's, you could buy Intel and use the SGX master keys to establish rogue nodes and take over the network.

In fact this is no better at all than if Intel were simply running the MobileCoin service as a centralized provider/bank.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#204
post #130

Surely I'm reading this wrong. Does the whole thing depend on users trusting that the nodes run the correct software, which uses these "enclaves" to hide private data from itself?

The nodes can prove that they are running the correct software using SGX.

If you trust Intel.

In that case, why not use a centralized ledger operated by Intel? It would certainly be more efficient, and no less trust-worthy. You even eliminate a whole bunch of side-channel attack vectors on the MobileCoin software such as memory access patterns, heat dissipation patterns, timing analysis, and failure modes such as total compromise of SGX.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From centralized exchanges, to centralized mining cartels, what does something like Bitcoin have left to offer? I'd say you're being overdramatic here. Mining is still decentralised and if there are any mining cartels, they haven't abused their position yet. It's still possible to buy, sell and spend Bitcoin peer to peer as well.

> I'd say you're being overdramatic here. Mining is still decentralised Controlled by a handful of people is absolutely not decentralized. They have abused their power. Ghash double spends. Segwit blocked for a year. Bitcoin cash proxy support.

I think part of the reason Segwit2x failed is that, ultimately, mining wasn't as centralized as everyone assumed. Its proponents had the backing of the major mining pools who controlled the vast majority of the mining power - or so they thought - but it turned out enough of the actual miners had views too and were happy to switch pools to express them that it suddenly looked a lot more precarious than expected.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin is a technological wonder Oh, dear lord. > ultimately not as advanced as its younger brethren. These must then be simply out of this world. Superwonder technologies. Double digit transactions per second!! /$ The hype around this piece of software is getting out of hand.

I read that like: "a stone wheel ? man it's not revolutionary at all. It's heavy. And hard to make. It's not practical and currently unusable for real purposes." Said by a guy you just witness the historical invention of the wheel.

Just witnessed? I knew about bitcoin long before you did. I assure you of that.

About the wheel. Rolling friction is less than sliding friction... Regrettably that point is probably over your head.

+1 for your ad hom.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#207

Isn't SGX not so secure ? [1] Specifically this claim "In a semi-synchronous attack, we extract 96% of an RSA private key from a single trace. We extract the full RSA private key in an automated attack from 11 traces within 5 minutes." [1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2017/03/using_intels_...

It's vulnerable to side-channel attacks, like a lot of trusted hardware. The challenge with trusted hardware is you have a much stronger threat model than a lot of previous work on side-channel attacks, in that instead of having to protect against remote or local unprivileged software attacks, you now have to guard against a local privileged attacker (e.g. a malicious OS or hypervisor), or potentially even someone with physical access. Having said that it is possible to design software in such a way as to be resistant to many side-channel attacks (albeit with a lot of effort and a performance hit) and I imagine future generations of SGX could add hardware protection against the most egregious channels. Of course if you have enough money/time it will always be possible, the question is whether an SGX based blockchain can be designed in such a way as to make it not worth the effort.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#208
post #161
post #25

To repeat an earlier comment, this scheme encourages a centralization of trust into a private key managed by processor manufacturers. You might say that by integrating SGX mechanisms into your security model, you create a set of 'feudal lords' [1] who can wield their power over you. A manufacturer may 'legitimately' establish an enclave in your most trusted hardware which you may not audit or even measure. And if tha…

Moxie has made it pretty clear through the way Signal operates than Moxie's worldview is one where our feudal lords know better than mere serfs can ever hope to. I'm not at all surprised that yet again trust roots are taken out of the hands of end users.

Seems unnecessarily adversarial of you. I think Moxie has justified his standpoint relatively convincingly, even if you may not agree with it.

And to some degree, the success of Signal, or Signal's protocol as implemented widely used services in WhatsApp, supports his approach. If cypherpunk-purists had their way, encryption would still only be a thing exclusively used by a slim minority of nerds who are capable of managing PGP and all the complications that come with its fragile nature.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#209

MobileCoin is backed by XLM/Stellar, which is not decentralized, and so I feel I should note here that I signed up during Stripe's giveaway of Stellar Lumens years ago - and I did indeed get my wallet credited. https://stripe.com/blog/stellar I was given 6000 XLM and I left it in their official wallet for years. On May 12th, 2017 I wrote them an email asking why my wallet, now converted to some newer official wallet,…

Too bad you are having this issue. But since you are airing it here on HN then my own anecdotal experience is I went through the same signup as you did. Forgot about it for three years. Found my multi-word password. Loaded it into the website. Received a message I'd been upgraded to the new system. I downloaded a stellar desktop client, transferred the coins to my desktop wallet, all problem free. I think it is easy…

>>I think it is easy for nearly all of us to agree the most likely cause of your own issues is operator error.

Seems exceptionally unlikely given the number of upvotes I have and the work that I did tracking it down. It is very likely their fault and/or a software bug.

Re: MobileCoin: A New Cryptocurrency from Moxie Marlinspike

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t believe any assets held in an ISA have any bearing at all on your capital gains allowance.

This is correct, gains in ISAs are tax free and have no impact on cgt allowance. So if cryptocurrencies were a good investment an ISA would be an excellent place to hold them and convert gains to currency you can spend, but I don’t think any isa providers support them.

Which is a particularly useful case for Bitcoin ETFs
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