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US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

nytimes.com

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Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#201

Post by lovich »

ryandrake wrote: post #104
austenallred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

I don't know, maybe it's different now, but my generation (went to school in the mid 90s) was not told to "just go to the best college no matter what": We were also advised to consider the cost and carefully choose a major so as to produce a positive expected ROI. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and you can never tell when huge, industry-wrecking changes are coming, but it was well understood that majoring in Und…

It's a little bit of a different situation but when I was in rotc in 2008 we were literally told to take underwater basket weaving if it was an option because all you needed was a high gpa and any degree. The business school was like this as well, you needed something like a 3.8 to get in, so everyone applied in their first or second semester. After that you could stay in the school with a The only person who ever told me to consider what sort of job I'd get was the advisor for the law school who said I shouldn't go into law if I ever wanted to make money. At the time I didn't trust her because every other adult in school and my personal life was giving me the opposite advice

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#202

Post by fictioncircle »

nerfhammer wrote: post #200
austenallred wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

Bubbles are caused by speculation, often by unsophisticated investors. Since an education is a non-transferrable asset it's difficult to conceive how it could be classified as a "bubble". Speculators buy assets that they aren't going to use themselves purely to sell it to someone else. If speculators are selling to mostly to other speculators and transactions between speculators starts taking up the bulk of the activ…

The housing bubble was sophisticated investors thinking they swindled unsophisticated investors to some degree.

Private student loans operate similarly and have similar risks. Similarly, you can't _sell_ an education except with a job so if there is even the slightest panic a bunch of people can't pay their loans and the holder of the note can't sell the underlying "education".

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#203

Post by lz400 »

axaxs wrote: post #194
lz400 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not overnight but you can start somewhere . Look, it works in most of the first world. Many comments are trying so hard to convince us that "in America is different" from their armchairs. It's like people try to convince themselves it's impossible. I truly think both for education and healthcare (both a disaster in the world's first economy vs the rest of the first world) if because those systems in the US…

Your last couple sentences sum it up nicely. Anything is possible, but not in our political climate. The two sides think of each other as mentally ill, and are to the point of violence. I hope it calms down, but in my lifetime it's only gotten worse. That needs to be fixed before we can get anything good for the nation done.

The best starting point is for people to agree that student loans are way past stupid at this point and a solution is needed and other countries seem to be doing well with gov run education. If everyone thought like that, things would probably follow. Politics are reactive, not proactive.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#204

Post by thatfrenchguy »

andrestan wrote: post #169
lz400 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

This is a gross oversimplification of a much more complicated issue. Even if this was all affordable, it doesn't take into account any second order effects. For example, European GDP per capita is typically ~75% that of the US GDP per capita. Have you ever considered the possibility that the tax regimes of European economies might be a contributing factor to this? Or have you considered what differences in attendance…

France offers admission to most normal universities without any exam or grade evaluating and a 300€ tuition per year.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#205

Post by mcguire »

lz400 wrote: post #187
lr4444lr wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free for everybody, regardless of ability, who wants it, and in any course of study?

When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in the exam. Apart from that, some degrees had very low acceptance scores and many people tended to study some humanities or economics degree that largely won't use afterwards, just for the social pressure of being an uni graduate. It's arguably how much you want…

"When I studied you had to pass an exam. Certain subjects had a very high bar. For example civil engineering. Can't get it without top grades and top results in the exam."

That would be the other side of the coin: if you do poorly on the exam or have poor grades, your choices are limited, no?

The upside of the American system is that anyone can get higher education. The downside is that many of the schools are tuition mills.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#206

Post by aswanson »

austenallred wrote: post #70
manacit wrote: post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

In the meantime, tuition outpaces inflation 3x, administrator costs escalate, construction projects continue apace on every "higher-education" campus in the country, and financially shielded, tenured professors who have guaranteed retirement plans and have never started so much as a lemonade stand prepare our youth for the future. I mean,non-Ivy USC tuition is only 72k a year. Why not go for the fun and profit of the uni. Thanks, baby boomers. At least you have your guaranteed pensions. The world you made sucks for your kids, though. Bubble, meet pin.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#207

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

crdb wrote: post #182
ryandrake wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, maybe it's different now, but my generation (went to school in the mid 90s) was not told to "just go to the best college no matter what": We were also advised to consider the cost and carefully choose a major so as to produce a positive expected ROI. Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and you can never tell when huge, industry-wrecking changes are coming, but it was well understood that majoring in Und…

> not told to "just go to the best college no matter what" > majoring in Underwater Basket Weaving was not a great idea from a financial point of view I've met many people in places like McKinsey or Goldman Sachs (i.e. "elite" high paying jobs) with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge in Philosophy, English, Arch & Ant or Theology (in "decreasing usefulness"). Many more than, say, graduates in accounting or business adm…

This would be more convincing if McKinsey and GS were genuinely considered to be producing something of value.

The reality is - more nuanced. Certainly there are many who consider both GS and McKinsey to be very bad things indeed, and not in any way a professional niche that high quality graduates should aspire to.

Perhaps there may be more to "intrinsic quality" than an obsessive work ethic and social connections?

My experience has been the opposite to yours. People who don't have technical degrees but have been trained to consider themselves experts in business management generally overestimate their own skills, and vastly underestimate the skills and insights of those (nominally) "under" them.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#208

Post by int_19h »

Goronmon wrote: post #105
libria wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy? If it were, banks would be far less likely to issue them, students would find cheaper education alternatives, and universities would be forced to provide greater assistance.

Why is student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy? Because there isn't a way to take back the knowledge/skills/information learned while in college. If you default on a home loan, then can take your house. If you default on a car loan, they can take your car. What can they do when you default on your student loans?

You can still declare bankruptcy when you don't have the collateral for your car/house loan anymore, though. For example, if your car was totaled, or your house burned down.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#209

Post by selectodude »

ceejayoz wrote: post #157
muninn_ wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, I tend to disagree. Great university's for sure, but the large majority of universities (particularly those accessible to anybody) reside in the United States. Now, I do agree that a university education doesn't have to cost as much as it does, but the scale of world-class universities in the rest of the world is dwarfed by the United States. Maybe students should not stop coming to US schools if they cost so muc…

> Great university's for sure, but the large majority of universities (particularly those accessible to anybody) reside in the United States. There are 4,140 in the US. https://www.infoplease.com/us/higher-education/number-us-col... There are about 4,000 in Europe. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV:c...

Europe has 750 million people and fewer universities.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#210

Post by dhf17 »

I work at a major state university that is claimed to be one of the most efficient in the US. On the administrative side it is a disorganized cluster bomb, full of frivolous spending, wasteful processes, and is years behind in technology and software. The things I've seen people manually doing on a computer all day... Throw on top the spending on social justice initiatives and you have your self a fat burden to pass on to students.
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