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US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

nytimes.com

161–170 of 436 posts

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#161
post #142
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rationale is that you can't take away an education the way you can repo a house or car. That and something about doctors borrowing a couple hundred K, then declaring bankruptcy to discharge it after graduation.

And yet, nothing prevents me from maxing out my credit cards, and spending it all on whiskey and limousine rides... Or totaling my car (While only having liability insurance). Lenders charge a premium over the prime interest rate because of the risk that they will never get their money back. Student loans are backed by the federal government - there is zero risk for these lenders. They seem to be under the impression…

I upvoted you because I think you've put your finger on something, and I think part of the answer is a collective unspoken belief that people who may not be meritorious on past academic achievement and/or very low on the income spectrum should have an avenue to determine their own educational destiny through hard work if they pledge a return on the investment to help them get there. And because of an impression that the rates would be too prohibitive if left to market forces, there's a risk trade-off to keep them artificially low enough for more people to pay them back on schedule at the expense of the taxpayer. I'm not saying this is a good thing, but we the taxpayers take a haircut when these loans go into default and have to be sold off at a discount - I don't think it's right to say the student bears all of the risk. The lender plays both sides.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#162
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

By the way, your https certificate for lambdauniversity.com is broken (it is for github, not your domain), and www.lambdauniversity.com/contact returns a 404.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#163
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure feels like a bubble to me. I don't know how many friends I have with six figures of student loans and no career, but it's a lot. Considering that those loans don't even go away with bankruptcy, it's waaaay too many. I've noticed that younger students are starting to realize how much risk there is in something like that and shy away when my generation didn't. Maybe it's that I grew up in a "striving" middle cl…

By the way, your https certificate for lambdauniversity.com is broken (it is for github, not your domain), and www.lambdauniversity.com/contact returns a 404.

Ya, migrating stuff as we speak. Bad timing. Thanks.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#164
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy? If it were, banks would be far less likely to issue them, students would find cheaper education alternatives, and universities would be forced to provide greater assistance.

> Why is student loan debt not dischargable in bankruptcy? Student loan debt is dischargeable in bankruptcy, though it has a higher bar than most other debt. > If it were, banks would be far less likely to issue them Banks issue less than 10%, by dollar value, of student loans; the vast majority are federal direct loans. Even if banks dropped out of issuing them completely, it wouldn't make the kind of difference you…

The more interesting question is not how much new debt banks are issuing right now, but how much of the debt that is already there is to the banks.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#165
post #139
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

I understand your sentiment, but realize even if we wanted to, swinging anything to government subsidy would tax us to death. Our healthcare AND university prices are ridiculous by any standards. You can't switch that to government controlled overnight. Where do you even start? Prices HAVE to come way down before the conversation happens, and those profiting ensure those conversations never happen.

To put another way, let's take a doctor. He can make a huge salary, but also has a huge student loan debt to pay off (potentially high 6 figure). You can't just slash their salaries and stick them with that education bill. And you can't slash education prices as long as they're more or less private. These two go hand in hand and are going to continue to plague us in costs.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#166
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

I definitely agree that rapidly rising education costs are a huge issue and need to be addressed. However, most (67%) undergraduate student loan amounts are for less than 20K[1] At 6.8% interest and 10 year repayment that comes to about $2,761 per year, with interest that can be paid with pre-tax money. Yes, thats a hefty amount to many, but earnings with a college degree are still much more than enough to offset tha…

What's worrying is that the underlying asset that will eventually pay off this debt (wage growth due to increased productivity this education is supposed to confer) has been stagnating or growing a lot more slowly than the cost of college.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#167
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes a hell of a lot of sense, to be honest. The problem in the US system is the government feels everyone has a "right" to an education, so it will underwrite an unlimited amount of loans regardless of what you do with them. That pumps the system so full of cash no one is quite sure what to do. They just keep raising prices and people keep coming, because what are you going to do, not go to college? Even after fund…

Why would this be any different than a right to, say, health care? Why even pay for k-12?

No such thing as a right to either because neither health providers nor educators are slaves.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#168
post #139
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

We're too busy rioting in the streets over the collusion of our President with the Russian Federation to worry about rioting over billions in college debt.

The real answer to me is that a lot of people hear "free college for everyone", and decide that this doesn't make sense because there's no way they themselves could have succeeded in college. Extrapolate from that, and most people can't attend college. So if it's a program that only benefits the few, it's evil socialism, and it will just make the government bigger while me and my children get nothing out of it.

Now pretty much every step of that logic is faulty, but I believe it's what people mean when they say "we can't afford to send everyone to college for free". Where the reality is, we really can't afford not to send everyone for free in an information economy.

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#169
post #139
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

This is a gross oversimplification of a much more complicated issue. Even if this was all affordable, it doesn't take into account any second order effects.

For example, European GDP per capita is typically ~75% that of the US GDP per capita. Have you ever considered the possibility that the tax regimes of European economies might be a contributing factor to this?

Or have you considered what differences in attendance look like? For example the US has significantly higher than OECD average for tertiary education achievement (https://data.oecd.org/eduatt/population-with-tertiary-educat...) Now, imagine what our achievement would look like without any cost for the education. Further, consider this doesn't take into account graduation rates. It may very well be the case that US graduation rates are lower than European rates implying even larger costs in the US.

What about the effects of such policies on quality? The US is typically seen as having excellent higher education quality. Would a regime under which higher education becomes free require wage freezes for professors? Increases in class size? Decreases in extra-curricular support?

What about the many Euro countries that offer free higher education but to a much smaller sample of the population by making it extremely restrictive (i.e. Germany)?

What's mind boggling is that anyone could ignore the massive tradeoffs of such a widespread and costly project as free higher education in the US and simply refer to it as "magic".

Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High

#170
post #139
post #10

I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…

I truly don't understand the USA sometimes. Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free? Well where I'm from there was a very low nominal cost but my father was a public servant so cost was waived, I literally studied CS for 0 cost. And these countries are able to afford it all! Magic! I don't understand how people in USA are not aware of this and literally rioting in the streets. At the very least sw…

Free for everybody, regardless of ability, who wants it, and in any course of study?
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