Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising? • Hacker News Board

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#201

Post by ctdonath » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 1:57 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #184

hughes wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. With software development it's a little different - it's entirely possible for a more…

> Does a more expensive pastry chef produce more expensive pastry? Or can a more experienced chef produce higher volume also? If the cost of the pastry increases with the cost of the chef, then it's entirely reasonable that there is a lower demand for more expensive pastry and therefore a lower demand for more expensive pastry chefs. Yeah, god forbid the actual quality of the pastry comes into play, and that the rest…

Few customers care that much about the quality of a pastry. A marginal decrease in quality won't result in an appreciable decrease in customers; likewise, a better quality pastry probably won't bring in enough money to cover the better chef.

At least in the USA. Here, most people equate "pastry" with something on the level of Dunkin Donuts, and are oblivious to the quality of something like an Austrian "konditorei".

The restaurant/bakery/etc may take pride in its output, but if the customers don't care in kind (a thing is worth what another is willing to pay for it) then it's unsustainable. Diminishing returns matter.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#202

Post by aantix » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 1:58 PM UTC

coldtea wrote: post #198

grinnbearit wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Profits come from satisfying people's values [1], if more "higher quality" doesn't lead to more profits, it isn't valued. As an aside, I'd be skeptical of Artists who produce "Inspiring work" which refuse to find any takers. [1] negative externalities aside

> Profits come from satisfying people's values Even bigger profits come from selling crap to people. Especially if you help build and sustain a whole culture that teaches them to have low expectations from what they buy, lure them with BS ads that tout unsubstantial products to high heavens, etc... > As an aside, I'd be skeptical of Artists who produce "Inspiring work" which refuse to find any takers. So like van Gog…

>Even bigger profits come from selling crap to people.

Apple sells a premium product and has a higher standard of quality than their competitors. Their products are priced accordingly.

They sit on the largest pile of cash out of any company in the U.S.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#203

Post by coldtea » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:09 PM UTC

aantix wrote: post #202

coldtea wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Profits come from satisfying people's values Even bigger profits come from selling crap to people. Especially if you help build and sustain a whole culture that teaches them to have low expectations from what they buy, lure them with BS ads that tout unsubstantial products to high heavens, etc... > As an aside, I'd be skeptical of Artists who produce "Inspiring work" which refuse to find any takers. So like van Gog…

>Even bigger profits come from selling crap to people. Apple sells a premium product and has a higher standard of quality than their competitors. Their products are priced accordingly. They sit on the largest pile of cash out of any company in the U.S.

Don't necessarily disagree (although Apple makes some crap too of course, generally the take pride in their products and try to do the right thing even if it hurts their volume sales or margins).

And they might even prove that putting something good out matters -- like several other companies do.

But the general mode of production in 90% of the industry is not Apple (which always catered to the more expensive "high end" of the market).

It's companies selling half-arsed products or knowingly bad products (like tons of crappy food stuff), even when they have tons of margin available to produce something better.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#204

Post by Fordrus » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:11 PM UTC

ido wrote: post #187

dagw wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are desserts that big a part of the bottom line? Surely as long you order drinks and a few courses I doubt the restaurant cares too much one way or the other if you then order desert. the generally agreed-upon admonition , "Don't bother ordering dessert there," is a devastatingly horrible outcome. Is it? I would say that about many of my favorite places to eat.

There was actually a (NYT article iirc) HN post about it a while back - deserts are apparently often very high margin and main courses loss leaders. EDIT: apparently I was wrong and it was the other way around! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/10/why-r...

With that in mind, my earlier post there, about the devastatingly horrible status of restaurants where desserts become known as bad, well, that's likely inaccurate, I must apologize for being mistaken there! :)

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#205

Post by Raphmedia » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

WillPostForFood wrote: post #85

code_sardaukar wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"months" sounds reasonable actually. "decades" and I would definitely agree with you. The problem with this sort of discussion is that everyone thinks they are worth more than the market will pay, and that the market is somehow broken.

Read this article, then spend a few days making ice cream, and you'll have a pretty solid grasp on it. I promise, months is an exaggeration. http://sweets.seriouseats.com/2013/08/how-many-eggs-should-i...

It's one thing to make a pint of icecream at home, at your own pace. It's another to product enough (and not too much) icecream in a restaurant's cuisine.

If the restaurant is high-end, the icecream should have the correct ingredients to pair with the other food.

Pastry making is often compared to an art... but then art doesn't pay much either.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#206

Post by Broken_Hippo » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:17 PM UTC

logicallee wrote: post #155

Alupis wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if Dunning Kruger actually applies well here. Parent is not assuming they are an expert/professional at baking, rather, Parent is assuming baking isn't difficult.

I didn't say it wasn't difficult - just that someone could be trained in how to do the tasks in a bakery that someone else has already come up with, in 90 minutes. Imagine someone who has no programming experience (0, in any programming language, does not know what a loop or an if statement is) and that you have 90 minutes to train them to join your development team. Come on.

Maybe if they are doing prep work or washing dishes, that's fine.

If you've never made a loaf of bread and don't know the steps, you aren't training them in 90 minutes. The first loaf likely won't even bake - heck, a lot of baked goods take an hour or two. The dough for croissants takes some hours in itself. You might have 15 different sorts of breads you make (admittedly some will use a master dough). And this is assuming these are pre-tested. You might need to make hundreds.

And make other things as well. Even assuming they are all tested, there are a lot of varied skills there. A lot of them have pastry cream, meringue, and different sorts of custards. All on a time schedule.

I'm not saying one can't train the help with tried and true things, but you are completely underestimating the amount of work and thought that goes into it.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#207

Post by logicallee » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:21 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #81

logicallee wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it really doesn't. It probably take all of 90 minutes to learn everything there is to know about making the pastries which are on the menu. Pastry-making is glorified robotics (but it's very exacting, baking is rather unforgiving compared to other forms of cooking.) Software development consists of creating a new recipe every day: you are NOT following well-defined steps.

That's a pretty ridiculous statement which pretty much speaks for itself. Software development is as much robotics as baking. I'd guess that easily 75% of the tasks being performed by programmers in 1999 are fully automated by APIs and frameworks today.

>Software development is as much robotics as baking

The next time you see a bus (public transportation) suppose that every person on it were committed to joining your bakery as a junior baker, and one at a time you must teach each of them how to follow one particular recipe exactly. You have two hours with each person. How many of them, if they are motivated and attentive, could you train to be able to follow any recipe?

Now repeat the thought experent, a busful of motivated people. If you have two hours to teach them to be junior software developers, how many will you succeed with?

There are no clear steps any non-dev (who does not know what a loop or if statement is) can follow to start developing. You can't use a non-developer as a junior dev, unless they're an incredibly fast learner and willing to put in incredible amounts of training on their own or on your time.

(I am talking about following other people's recipes exactly, not coming up with new ones.)

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#208

Post by ythl » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

mamon wrote: post #142

vmarsy wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The parent specifically mentioned Americans. It's much easier to find the right and good ingredients for a recipe in France than is it in the U.S. Go to any supermarket in France and buy flour for instance: you'll find type T45, T55, T65, T80, T110, T150 [1]. And professional pastry recipes will tell you exactly what type of flour in what quantities. In the U.S. you will only find "All Purpose flour". I know French p…

This is higly correlated with regulatory laws governing agriculture in US and Europe. EU has much more strict policies, limits on pesticide use, no GMO rule, plus specific laws to protect traditional (sometimes centuries old) product recipies from being faked by inustrial-scale producers, replacing natural ingredients with chemicals. That's why food generaly tastes much better in Europe.

> replacing natural ingredients with chemicals.

How is natural vanillin any better than synthetic vanillin? Matter is matter. Organic molecules are identical whether a plant produced them or a chemist.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#209

Post by pavel_lishin » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:42 PM UTC

personlurking wrote: post #150

mc32 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is price for pastries is more or less elastic. I'll pay $2 to $4 for a croissant/crescent but I'm not going to pay more than that. An $8 croissant isn't going to be any better because the preparer gets paid more. It may taste marginally better with more expensive ingredients, but not because the chef/baker/baxter is paid more.

I never thought people would pay for high-end toast, but at least in SF, they are (according to this 10 min video) Toast: Inside San Francisco's Controversial Bread Obsession https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhPrWm-vKSY

This is from over two years ago; are artisanal toast shops still a thing? People in New York are no longer standing in an hour-long line to get a cronut.

Re: Pastry Chefs Are in Demand, Why Aren’t Wages Rising?

#210

Post by mooreds » Fri, Oct 14, 2016, 2:44 PM UTC

cmdrfred wrote: post #173

Symbiote wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked it a fancy bakery for a couple of months when I was 18. The place supplied smaller hotels and an upmarket high-street café. The finished cakes sell to retailers for about £20. I was just a temp worker, but the chef who supervised me clearly understood where quality ingredients were necessary, and where they could take shortcuts. For example, some recipes called for a branded liqueur to be used, whilst others…

You get what you pay for. Qualified, hard working people demand a living wage. If you can't pay that you get whatever is left over after every other employer takes his pick.

This is so true. Because labor is not a commodity, some folks forget that the rules of demand and supply work both ways for labor, just as they do for widgets.