VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks • Hacker News Board

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#201

Post by venomsnake » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:50 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #177

venomsnake wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are mistaking two types of open society: Open inside (market place of ideas, secularity, people generally subscribing to the live and let live) and open outside - welcoming, letting people join or willing to help people that are not from that society. Wanting liberal, secular and socially oriented Europe inside and sealing the borders and isolating oneself from the human suffering outside is definitely la…

Sorry. My country has a pretty long history of being on the wrong side of historical arguments and was on the right side once or twice as well by 'virtue' of being invaded. We've been refugees, have taken in refugees, have been a battle field and have waged war with neighbors and overseas creating battle fields elsewhere. An isolationist strategy is given that history to me morally bankrupt and not an option, even if…

Probably you are right, but your country is part of something bigger now. And while we are busy building an united Europe, isolationism is actually a good strategy while we sort our internal problems. Which includes integrating some troubled spots and minorities. Adding more people to the mix right now will hardly help that process.

There are no good answers right now. We are very deep and there will be a lot of pain in the coming years. Everything else is wishful thinking.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#202

Post by fnordfnordfnord » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:51 PM UTC

ousta wrote: post #34

jacquesm wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter to me what the other side of a conflict does, what matters to me is what my side of a conflict does. The fact that we don't descend to the level of our opponents gives us at least a moral edge, and it might even give us a real edge in the longer run. The moral high ground is one that you give up at your peril. Not that the Catholic church in particular has much moral high ground left but at least th…

the thing your kind of people (which is the majority of people in the western world) will never understand is that barbary will always win against democracy. It is by saying sorry, teaching to people that you opressed them, enslaved them, telling them that they are a minority living with less chances and opportunities than a random "white man" well those same people will hate you for this, they will always see you as…

>barbary will always win against democracy.

Perhaps, but probably not the kind of barbarism that you're thinking about. The barbarians that win over democracy will use economic forces to enslave its own citizens, and will use the productivity of the citizens to produce resources and weapons, and use those to take what they want. Some would argue that this has already happened.

>just look at BLM in usa

What about them? They're not barbarians, just noisy protesters.

>This is a war of civilisations and way of life.

No one from the US will keep you from living even what they consider a barbaric way of life as long as you sell your oil cheap.

>and trust me. the peaceful one, the one that always say sorry for everything is not going to win.

Maybe you're not referring to the US. I haven't noticed us to be very peaceful over the last thirty years.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#203

Post by gotchange » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #70

cygx wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's not "all Muslisms". But those who claim "it's only the terrorists" or "it's all politics" do not grasp the scope of the problem, ie that globally speaking, a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. If you naively extrapolate from the 2013 Pew Poll The World’s Muslims: Religion, Politics and Society (which in principle represents nations with a tot…

> a significant number of adherents of Islam hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society. Significant numbers of non-Islam subscribers hold ideas that are incompatible with an open society too. All these people have at least one thing in common: they would like to change society to suit their ends. And a very large number of people in my country would happily throw back those fleeing the carnage to become v…

> they would like to change society to suit their ends.

What would be those means employed by non-Muslim radicals to effect social change?

I'm inclined to say that urban warfare and terrorizing an entire population with open aggression tactics are not among them.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#204

Post by jacquesm » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

venomsnake wrote: post #201

jacquesm wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. My country has a pretty long history of being on the wrong side of historical arguments and was on the right side once or twice as well by 'virtue' of being invaded. We've been refugees, have taken in refugees, have been a battle field and have waged war with neighbors and overseas creating battle fields elsewhere. An isolationist strategy is given that history to me morally bankrupt and not an option, even if…

Probably you are right, but your country is part of something bigger now. And while we are busy building an united Europe, isolationism is actually a good strategy while we sort our internal problems. Which includes integrating some troubled spots and minorities. Adding more people to the mix right now will hardly help that process. There are no good answers right now. We are very deep and there will be a lot of pain…

That we are fully in agreement on, unfortunately. But one thing we can do is to stop digging the hole any further (at least, on this side of the divide).

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#205

Post by saiya-jin » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

kr4 wrote: post #56

jacquesm wrote: post #6

> They control large areas of land, have their own oil fields, and receive direct support from many countries in the region. Namely from rich oil-producing countries. That's one of those things where we could make a fairly immediate change in policy, it would come at a cost, definitely but it would change the situation for IS for the worse far more effectively than any number of bombs dropped would do.

How easy it is to change the policy adopted and executed for over 5 decades [0]. During this period both of the parties have sufficiently ruled Washington with same policy. Glenn Greenwald provides further documentation that the various Middle Eastern and North African wars were planned before 9/11 [1] "General Wesley Clark … said the aim of this plot [to “destroy the governments in … Iraq, … Syria, Lebanon, Libya, S…

Bush jr (may he burn in hell eternally for all the fallback of his reign) being super eager to find any excuse to attack Iraq was super-obvious to anybody outside US during those times. That's why France & Germany didn't join Iraq effort, it was just too ridiculous without any good reason, when another dictatorship just across the border was more than OK (saudis), and let's not forget most attackers including Osama were from there. UK joining them no matter what on the other hand showed how morally low the politicians at that time were (Blair if I recall correctly).

About that time, US on international scale went from "good guys" to... well nothing that could be written here, let's say "necessary evil". It's still there and will remain for quite some time.

I wonder, if all direct and indirect deaths and misery caused by US politics from 50s would be accounted, if Hitler & Stalin regimes would still be such badasses. But real numbers are probably unreachable. (uncomparable datasets, i know, just out of curiosity... deaths in millions become statistics as we know).

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#206

Post by sangnoir » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

cmdkeen wrote: post #154

utku_karatas2 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate to dwell on topics not suited on HN, but I'll just ask you one thing: how would the French troops on the Syrian ground even remotely help securing France? USA can pull off its invasive politics via a) pouring insane amount of resources both militarily and politically b) by getting along pretty good with other Muslims while bombing some (like Saudis, Turks, etc.) c) by being an ocean distance away from the very p…

The Islamic State are different from AQ in that they have territorial ambitions, the clue is in the name. Their PR success is buoyed by their successes. France has the expeditionary capability to assist in driving the IS out of the territory it currently occupies. If France doesn't care about who takes control of the territory afterwards, as long as they aren't terrorist supporting Islamists then it does have the cap…

I think the west needs to think long and hard about nation-building, not just fighting wars. They also need to have frank discussions with their nominal 'allies' in the ME who are driving a lot of the instability.

I have no doubts France has the capability to "seriously damage" Daesh, but what about Daesh's successor - which is likely to be just as bad (or worse)? Unfortunately, it seems like democracy (with it's 4-/5-year election cycles) is incompatible with long term planning. It's a mirror-image of the modern-day corporate world, with CxOs who damage the organisations they lead in the pursuit of short-term gains (and the resulting bonuses), except that election stakes are higher (keep/lose the job).

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#207

Post by happyscrappy » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:53 PM UTC

0xFFC wrote: post #159

omginternets wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully (and partially) disagree. The invasion of Iraq was stupid, reckless and selfish. It was a for-profit war that destabilized the region and allowed ISIS to take on its present form. I'll have you remember that France staunchly opposed this war. Now the US and the brits have left us with a veritable cesspool, and we're bearing the brunt of the consequences. This isn't a liberation attempt or a preemptive…

Am pretty angry about what is going on in world , so if you felt insulted , I am so sorry , and You should understand I don't want to insult you or any other person specifically,But I want insult Ideologies pretty badly. As person who LIVES in heart of middle east (Iran) and I have seen shia militant from very close(I know people who works in IRGC),You are completely and pure wrong , do you know what would generate a…

More and more of the West are wanting to just pull out and "let them all kill each other", but that seems a little cruel doesn't it? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#208

Post by late2part » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

0xFFC wrote: post #159

omginternets wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I respectfully (and partially) disagree. The invasion of Iraq was stupid, reckless and selfish. It was a for-profit war that destabilized the region and allowed ISIS to take on its present form. I'll have you remember that France staunchly opposed this war. Now the US and the brits have left us with a veritable cesspool, and we're bearing the brunt of the consequences. This isn't a liberation attempt or a preemptive…

Am pretty angry about what is going on in world , so if you felt insulted , I am so sorry , and You should understand I don't want to insult you or any other person specifically,But I want insult Ideologies pretty badly. As person who LIVES in heart of middle east (Iran) and I have seen shia militant from very close(I know people who works in IRGC),You are completely and pure wrong , do you know what would generate a…

Thank you for an informed and passionate point of view.

I'm proud of the work I and others have done to make Internet ubiquitous to fight ignorance.

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#209

Post by jnbiche » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

crusso wrote: post #181

arca_vorago wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny though, how the fundamentalists christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians. I really dislike this, "but xtians are less violent than muslims because they have a mandate to kill apostates" approach, because it ignores so much of the reality. Not to mention, without diving into old/new testament theology, that there are plenty of commands to kill in the bible, even of unbeleivers…

christians have killed many more muslims than muslims have killed christians Undoubtedly, but important questions about the ethics of war aren't usually based upon the body count. They're based upon initiation of force, hostility, ability to negotiate peace, treatment of captives, willingness to adhere to treaties, etc.

> Undoubtedly, but important questions about the ethics of war aren't usually based upon the body count.

Actually, one of the most important principles of the laws of war (International humanitarian law) is that of proportionality, and body count is a major determinant of proportionality [1,2].

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)

2. http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/proportionality-princip...

Re: VLC contributor living in Aleppo writing about the Paris attacks

#210

Post by supergirl » Tue, Nov 17, 2015, 1:54 PM UTC

Grue3 wrote: post #61

Isn't current Syrian government also guilty of perpetrating acts of genocide against its own populace? This person is quick to denounce the other side, but Assad's forces have killed thousands of civilians as well. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_Syria

Actually on that page there are few massacres before the current civil war.

The biggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre happened during a fight between government forces and islamists which had taken over a city and started an uprising, so I wouldn't really call them civilians; civilians with guns maybe.

I don't know much about the history of Syria, just saying the link you posted doesn't really show the picture you want.