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Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

johannakoll.posterous.com

191–200 of 257 posts

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#191
post #114
post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

women get pregnant

So? It's not legal to discriminate based on gender, or family status.

The people reviewing CVs didn't claim to be taking this into account (and odds are, weren't). This evidence shows they were taking things into account that they thought they were.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on industry, sexism takes other (equally destructive) forms as well. A friend of mine quit his job at a big law firm that shall not be named when he found that attractiveness was the primary criterion for hiring women. He sat in on a hiring meeting once, where the following sorts of conversations took place: "Katrina. That sounds hot. Do you think Katrina's probably hot? Let's give her an interview." This w…

Someone told me once that a contributing factor to the "jewish lawyer stereotype" was caused by law firms who discriminated against jews — who then started up their own law firms, and outcompeted all the other law firms because it's easier to find talent if you don't discriminate. The Harlem Globetrotters picked the best of the african-american basketball players, who were not welcome on other teams. The result was p…

I've heard that story as well. Same thing happened with investment banks. Legend has it that Goldman Sachs was started because Marcus Goldman and Samuel Sachs couldn't get jobs at WASPy firms.

The other side of the coin is that the white-shoe firms didn't touch certain types of businesses (like M&A or IPOs) because those businesses were considered "ungentlemanly." So they were left to the Jewish firms, who developed an expertise in the fields during the decades that they were considered unimportant.

If you really want to trace the origin of the Jewish finance/law stereotypes back to their root, it goes all the way back to Middle Ages (and possibly earlier). Money handling and the trades were considered unclean/uncouth professions, and the landed aristocracy were so rich that they didn't need to concern themselves with such business. Some countries even mandated that Christians couldn't engage in such businesses. Jews took up finance, merchandizing, artisanry, etc., and placed a great deal of importance on professional success -- it being the only way that Jews could advance in society. To whatever extent that my people are stereotyped as "naturally" good at finance, etc., it's usually because nobody else was touching those things for hundreds of years.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on industry, sexism takes other (equally destructive) forms as well. A friend of mine quit his job at a big law firm that shall not be named when he found that attractiveness was the primary criterion for hiring women. He sat in on a hiring meeting once, where the following sorts of conversations took place: "Katrina. That sounds hot. Do you think Katrina's probably hot? Let's give her an interview." This w…

Someone told me once that a contributing factor to the "jewish lawyer stereotype" was caused by law firms who discriminated against jews — who then started up their own law firms, and outcompeted all the other law firms because it's easier to find talent if you don't discriminate. The Harlem Globetrotters picked the best of the african-american basketball players, who were not welcome on other teams. The result was p…

Also see: hospitals with names like Beth Israel or Mount Sinai.

Jewish American doctors, facing discrimination from the WASP elite of the era, leveraged their talents, innate ability, and entrepreneurial drive to create institutions with names that now stand for the best in the business.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#194
post #7

People laugh when they hear a "sexist" joke because it's funny. Maybe gender related jokes don't have a place at conferences and work places - I am not sure - but there should be room for jokes about genders somewhere, right? I mean, where does this political correctness stop?

At home, in the privacy of your home.

Look, it's like talking about or showing your naked body. You can't do it in work or professional contexts. If the people close to you are OK with all of ye getting naked, fine. But if someone complains of you being naked at work, you have no right to complain.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#195
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Political correctness" is often a buzzword used to dismiss people who want to discuss this. Other, better, words exist. "Politeness" is one. "Freedom of expression" is another, though.

I'm sorry you feel that the rules of basic human decency are trampling on your first amendment rights.

And the cliches and Prudishness of one specific society do not universal "basic human decency" constitute.

Just wanted to highlight this response from coldtea below because it's spot on.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way that a 5-year old child punching a 30-year-old adult is not the same thing as a 30-year-old adult punching a 5-year-old child, yes. This gets complicated when we consider that treating underprivileged groups as the proverbial 5-year-old children can also be a problem, such as when we assume they're incapable of speaking cogently for themselves, and so on. It's a difficult problem, which is why these k…

So you're saying that a Black person is like a 5 year old and a White person is like a 30 year old? That's why people called grown Black men "boy" back in the day - it's egregiously racist and infantilizing to African Americans.

I addressed this in my second paragraph. There is a fundamental tension between two different views of fairness:

One view says that fairness is about aggregate outcomes. We can observe that certain groups appear to be suffering from poor outcomes, and we regard this as unfair to members of those groups. We also recognise the historical factors involved in producing those outcomes. So, we might say "Women are under-represented in the software industry. This is because there are fewer women with relevant skills. But this is because of a legacy of centuries of sexist discrimination against women, and the only way to correct this is to perform some balancing discrimination in favour of women now". This view has no problem in recognising that women can be, on average, "inferior" (less experienced, say) programmers, but says that if they are inferior then it is because of historical factors and not any innate characteristic of women.

The other view says that fairness is about individual acts. It's unfair to take certain aspects of a person's identity (e.g. gender) into account when evaluating a person, so we don't do that. It's unfair to act in a way that makes people of certain identities uncomfortable or disadvantages them in group situations, so we don't do that. Since advantage is relative, it's also wrong to act in a way that benefits only people of a certain identity. They think that disadvantaging someone because of their identity is unfair to that person, and even giving a person a positive advantage is unfair to them because it demeans their real achievements.

Followers of the two ethical frameworks have a lot of trouble understanding each other. The second group thinks fairness is about acting fairly towards individuals, and thinks that it would be wrong to treat a woman differently from a man, since that is, after all, the sine qua non of sexism. But this also rules out giving the women a positive advantage. This directly conflicts with the notion of fairness held by the first group. They will, bizarrely, both describe the other group as being 'sexist' - group one for believing that it's legitimate to treat women differently from men (but only if it is done to correct a historical imbalance), and group two for arguing that it's wrong to consider gender when dealing with someone, because this ignores historical and systemic factors.

I lean towards the individualist position myself, but it's not wrong to worry about the systemic factors and the aggregate outcomes. I also suspect that whilst the philosophical debate is very entertaining, it's also not very relevant to day-to-day life, which would be vastly improved by putting the philosophy to one side and just being a bit nicer to each other.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#197
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>So do you suggest that the way women are represented + put to use in the media/marketing is okay? >> There's an obvious point being made when a slide with women clad in bikinis is shown at a geeky male-dominated conference. >> Personally I find what marketing does to women both when advertising to them and advertising using them utterly despicable.[/quote] Oh come on, please... The point being made is very likely n…

> which tends to work on male audiences That might mean something if the audience was only men. But instead it had the effect of making the women feel like they were being ignored, as if the presenter was only speaking to the men in the room.

Fair enough... You could say it wasn't very thoughtful of the presenter, probably distasteful even, but in my opinion there's a whole world between bad taste and sexism. I honestly don't understand why anyone would get worked up over something like that.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#198
post #4

For those who think it doesn't matter, and that there is no sexism and that women aren't be discriminated against due to the pure fact of their gender, be aware that there have been double blinded scientific studies that show that if you change the name of a CV/resume to a female name when applying for science jobs, they don't get as much/as good offers. If this was question about whether a new drug worked or not, th…

FWIW, it has also been shown that women are okay accepting lower salaries and are less likely to ask for raises (i.e. less aggressive at trying to get better wages and such). This is not to say that I think that sexism doesnt exist, but rather that your 'evidence' is potentially misleading/false.

It's also been shown that when they do ask for higher salaries or raises, they are perceived in a negative light whereas men who do so are perceived in a positive light.

So they don't ask because if they did it would harm them.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#199

>A talk at a conference showing girls in bikinis. An API presentation from a sponsor featuring ladies in bras. A demo at a hack day with a slide of women in underwear. A business model canvas workshop using a strip club as an example to illustrate the tool. These are just a few examples of casual sexism I've experience at (tech) events. Where does sexy end and sexism begin? I too am against sexism (who isn't?), but m…

Your argument seems to be "It's common, so it must be moral". This is a silly reason to say a thing is OK.

Re: Sexism is not funny, let's stop laughing

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood why "political correctness" has to be political. Almost all of the words that aren't PC, are must more entrenched in the social, societal sphere than in politics. If a politician says something non-PC, they get in much more trouble than a lay person. A person who is an expert at being PC...will probably succeed as a politician, tip-toeing strategic thinker...

> I never understood why "political correctness" has to be political. Almost all of the words that aren't PC, are must more entrenched in the social, societal sphere than in politics. It's not about "politics" as in the narrow sphere of political affairs (democrats, republicans, voting etc). It's about "political" in the wider sense (that is "trying to be tactful", not to annoy various sides, etc).

> It's about "political" in the wider sense (that is "trying to be tactful", not to annoy various sides, etc).

No, that's a false etymology. The term "politically correct" in its modern usage came from leftist movements in the 70s to describe politics (not in the broad sense of "tact"). Think of it as a synonym for "ideologically sound". The civil rights movement was definitely about politics, not tact. The term "politically correct" was then appropriated by the same leftist movements and used sarcastically to parody themselves.

Afterwards, it entered the general lexicon.

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