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Are we decentralized yet?

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191–200 of 292 posts

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#191
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I suspect that the cost of running AT proto servers/relays is prohibitive for smaller players compared to a Mastadon server selectively syndicating with a few peers, but I say this with only a vague understanding of the internals of both of these ecosystems. This isn't quite right. ATProto has a completely different "shape" so it's hard to make apples-to-apples comparison. Roughly speaking, you can think of Mastodon…

That's a big post that doesn't really explain in what way can smaller players federate with ATProto or how the structure allows federation. Reading through it, it just sounds like sharding/scaling for a centralized service that's meant to be owned and provided by a single entity.

I think it can be explained a little better.

When you write a post, you save it to your PDS. Think of it like writing a blog. You're done, you hit submit, it shows up on a server somewhere. You can run your own server with your own data, or use someone else's. That's exactly how a PDS works; it is a storage server for your data.

The AppView is a way to index all the PDSes registered across the whole network. If your server is crawlable by the AppView, all your data shows up in the app. This is like if your blog is crawlable by Google, you show up in search results.

When you like a post, you commit a "like" record to your personal server. When the AppView displays likes, it looks at every indexed PDS and shows every like it can find for that post (simplifying a little for clarity). Each one of those likes might live on different servers, some of which is self-hosted.

Because you can run your own PDS, you can commit any data you want to it. You can even commit things that services may find distasteful. However, the AppView may refuse to serve this content to users; this is how content can be removed from the network and how users can be banned. The federation equivalent would be defederation, except it happens to singular accounts rather than entire instances.

If you disagree with the moderation policies run by Bluesky the company, that's when you can look into running an alternative AppView. This is similar to disagreeing with the admin of a particular Mastodon instance and moving to a different instance. Of course, as mentioned running an AppView is much more expensive, but that hasn't stopped folks from trying (I believe Blacksky is trying to run their own AppView that is fully independent of Bluesky).

To use an alternate AppView, you'd simply go to a different website. This website will index PDSes the same way that Bluesky does, but it may index them in a different way and include/exclude different content. The data is still there (nobody can reach into your PDS on your server and delete your data), but the AppView admins choose which content they wish to serve to people using their community, just as Mastodon admins choose who to federate with.

In this sense, it is indeed truly federated. The primitives are simply different; it's more granular than Mastodon.

You can write your own content to your own server and let it get indexed to any number of AppViews; you completely control your personal data and nobody can reach in and delete that data randomly as they don't own it - you do (at the cost of ~$1/month or a Raspberry Pi).

When you use the Bluesky service, you are seeing their view of the network and what they choose to index. You may disagree with this view, just as you may disagree with the admins of Mastodon.social etc. In that case, you can choose to use another AppView (such as deer.social or Blacksky) that adopts different policies. Since account information isn't stored on the AppView and it simply handles indexing and moderation, moving between AppViews is painless and no data needs to be transferred from one server to another - you simply use a different bookmark.

It could be that you disagree with all the current AppView admins. You can host your own, it's just expensive ($300/month, as mentioned). You can also tailor your AppView to index less content, which will of course limit the amount of data you consume and give you a partial view of the network, effectively defederating you from anything you do not wish to index.

But there's nothing stopping you from doing so!

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#192

Sadly, and fortunately, there is no such thing as "avoiding centralization", the evidence is overwhelming: == Politics & Sociology (power concentrates in organizations) - Robert Michels, Political Parties (1911) origin of the "iron law of oligarchy": even democratic groups tend to end up run by a few: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy - Jo Freeman, "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" (1970/72): leade…

The Internet itself is decentralized, which made it extremely resilient. So is democracy. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy The article cites a few notable counterexamples like Wikipedia. Your post looks like learned helplessness.

> The Internet itself is decentralized, which made it extremely resilient. So is democracy.

extremely? i wouldn't bet on that.

how do you even measure that? books have been around for over a millenium, that's quite resilient. the internet is barely 50 years old. empires have lasted for thousands of years, modern democracies are a bit over a couple of centuries ... young. how do you determine their resilience? i see quite concerning signs of degradation lately, and they might have something to do with that iron law of oligarchy.

> The article cites a few notable counterexamples like Wikipedia.

no, it doesn't? it has a section titled "examples and exceptions", but it doesn't include any real exception (that has been resilient to this day), let alone a 'counterexample'.

> Your post looks like learned helplessness.

yours looks like wishful thinking (and difficulty in parsing the wikipedia)

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#193
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems misleading. Different AppViews would obviously be branded differently, but the whole point of ATProto is that there is a shared "picture" of the world. People are running alternative AppViews that consume Bluesky posts (and serve Bluesky threads). Here's the same thread on three different AppViews: - https://zeppelin.social/profile/did:plc:iyz5zf463ic52vqbonyu... - https://blacksky.community/profile/did:pl…

OK, to be honest, I'm surprised anyone runs a third-party Bluesky AppView even just as a curiosity. I genuinely can't understand why anyone would run one of these except as a raw curiosity. If 99% of the people are using the default AppView, the default relay, the default indexers, the default PDSes, etc, etc... that just means that everything that almost the entire userbase sees is completely controlled by one entit…

Having multiple implementations available is an important step towards decentralization, even if most people don’t use them yet. It shows that it’s technically feasible and will help shake out any bugs.

Getting people to actually switch will be harder, and presumably it would involve both promoting the alternatives and adding features that some users will find attractive.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#194
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can, it just won't be the Bluesky App View, so it's not really Bluesky. It's not like the fediverse where the instances own the URLs of the posts: they go through app views and there's a canonical URL to a Bluesky post and that's through the official app view.

This seems misleading. Different AppViews would obviously be branded differently, but the whole point of ATProto is that there is a shared "picture" of the world. People are running alternative AppViews that consume Bluesky posts (and serve Bluesky threads). Here's the same thread on three different AppViews: - https://zeppelin.social/profile/did:plc:iyz5zf463ic52vqbonyu... - https://blacksky.community/profile/did:pl…

What is zeppelin.social? Who runs it? They don’t seem to have an about page.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#195
post #178
post #170

Decentralized has a problem. Its premise is that anyone can set up and run a node, cheaply. If the decentralized network allows for some kind of targeted broadcasting, it becomes attractive for spamming (e.g: email). If the decentralized network allows for concentration of responses on something, it becomes a potential tool for a DDoS attack (e.g.: DNS amplification). So running a node should be somehow expensive, bu…

But this problem isn't fatal, and can be mitigated directly. The internet itself is extremely decentralized and while both of these things can be issues, it works in practice. I disagree that building economics into the protocol is the way forward. There's so much power and creativity that can be unlocked when the substrate is free.

It absolutely doesn't "work in practice" for the web.

Read-only sites, like personal blogs, are easy to self-host but vulnerable to DDoS attacks if targeted.

Writeable sites, like anything with a form or message board, are now too expensive to run because of spammers and hacking bots.

We're now all paying rent to Cloudflare or Substack or whatever because you can't just be an isolated island on the open web anymore.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#197

The honest truth is that: Nobody outside tech cares about decentralization or federation. At some point, everything converges to centralization. No amount of Mastodon servers or any fediverse self hosted instances spun up will change that. There is a reason that mastodon.social is the biggest instance and that they couldn't close registrations to promote decentralization. Hell, I would even say that threads is the bi…

> Nobody outside tech cares about decentralization or federation.

People outside tech very much do care about the effects of centralization, though. They complain about it constantly, in oblique terms.

All the waxing poetic about "social media"? They aren't mad that people talk to each other. They're mad at platforms.

They just don't recognize the root cause of their pain points until they're sufficiently technical.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#198
post #134
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BlueSky (for the average user) is pretty much a drop in replacement for Twitter. One reason Bluesky is so successful is because it doesn't shove decentralisation into the user's face like Mastodon does. The vast majority of people don't know what decentralisation is and don't care to. I think that far too much effort is put into decentralisation and not enough into good moderation on these platforms.

Moderation is definitely Fediverse’s weakness.

What even is "moderation" at this point? I'm not sure this word is used as defined on paper dictionaries. It is a codeword for something else, like censorship or influencing or artificial control of public opinion?

Because, if it's purely about filtering out content not desired by users, it could be nearly trivially done at the edge, automatic and completely de-humanized, and the word as appearing lately doesn't read that way to me.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Running a relay is not expensive anymore (it used to be), with recent changes it's about $30/mo. Running an AppView that ingests all ongoing Bluesky traffic (and puts it into database) is more expensive ($300/mo currently) but if you were happy with a partial view of the network, you could get it down by a lot.

> Running a relay is not expensive anymore [...] $30/mo is $360/yr, which for most people is a prohibitively large sum of money. That would make Bluesky access more expensive than even the most expensive Netflix subscription; closer to the cost of a cellular plan. For comparison: for my Mastodon account I pay $5/mo or $60/yr to a dedicated hosting provider. This puts it in the same ballpark as paying for a private em…

There's no real reason to set up a relay for just one person, though.

It's less like a cellular plan and more like building your own private cell tower just because you can.

Re: Are we decentralized yet?

#200
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are lots of ways they could make a sustainable income without disrupting Bluesky's current status quo Like what?

Off the top of my head: Paid hosting/services on top of the protocol, reddit-gold style tipping and gamification, being a transactional middleman (there are a lot of artists selling things, famous people promoting things, and so on), promoted posts and ads (easily blockable, but some users wouldn't bother). Bluesky is a small team of like ~30 people, if they keep running lean they have at least a chance of a decent p…

They could also follow the Gmail playbook.

For consumers, plenty of ads and plenty of tracking. For businesses, heavily-restricted user-to-server APIs and features gated behind subscriptions, think custom domains with Bsky hosting, multi-user post approvals, integrating DMs with customer support systems etc.

You can do all of that while still being fair to and interoperable with the rest of the ecosystem. As long as you don't want the convenience, features and UI of Gmail, you can still communicate with Gmail users from any other provider, and the same could be true about Bsky.

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