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Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

mcc-berlin.net

191–200 of 910 posts

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

It’s not a weasel word, it’s a word used to describe any program provided by the government that does not bring in enough revenue on its own to pay for itself. The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls. If the government pays for something through a general fund from income/property/corporate taxes, it’s subsidized. It’s important to call these out whenever they are be…

>The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls.

I'm German and I can tell you it really does not. Like in a lot of countries car infrastructure is treated like the state of nature, it's just somehow there, and the infrastructure burden of parking, road construction and what have you isn't a topic. It's the 'default culture' and the support it gets is just the status quo, when you try to internalize the cost you cause a shitstorm. Look at how well surge pricing or road toll debates go over in most places, or how sensitive people are to fuel prices.

Rail transport be it commercial or individual despite the fact that it's so much cheaper (in particular on emissions as well) is always one political decision away from being privatized or culled.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

Don’t forget too that the cost of proving roads is also ‘subsidised’ in most countries, but we’re tend to be a bit blind to that. (This is not an argument against rail - I just find that subsidies are often mentioned with respect to rail but not with roads).

People don't think of it as a subsidy because they are not charged per use a la toll road.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars also have a huge subsidy in the form of roads

There are generally taxes (e.g., car or gas taxes) that cover the costs. I don't know about Germany's situation, but it is not impossible to make that net zero.

Not even close to net zero in Germany. Do you have any examples of countries where car and gas taxes do actually cover the cost of roads?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#194
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Japan, rail companies also own the land around the station. There is often a mall or office right on top of the station. So they capture a more of the value of having public transport. In western countries land lords benefit a lot from nearby public transport for free and maybe only contribute in taxes.

You see the same thing in Hong Kong - the rail company practically creates new towns when they add a new station or extend a rail line.

I was under the impression Hong Kong was one big urban area already, is there really empty land new towns can be built on?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any subsidies openAi has received. Did I miss something or is this one of the situations we're we are making up new definitions for words?

> I'm not aware of any subsidies openAi has received. It is rumored that the military (and perhaps three-letter agencies) has/have special contracts with OpenAI. This can definitely be called a subsidy.

A contract isn't a subsidy... A subsidy would be giving them dollars without any particular strings attached except perhaps to use those funds to develop the product. If the contract is to provide money in exchange for services, that's called a transaction.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find the word subsidy to be a possible weasel word here. I don't know all the details but a railway system has certain costs (fuel, personnel, water, upkeep, the trains themselves and so on) and takes in a certain amount of revenue (fares and subsidies, also food etc). It might be true that the government increased the subsidy in order to support the cheaper tickets. But that's not the same as "requires". Perhaps I…

It’s not a weasel word, it’s a word used to describe any program provided by the government that does not bring in enough revenue on its own to pay for itself. The same word applies to roads that do not pay for themselves through gas tax and/or tolls. If the government pays for something through a general fund from income/property/corporate taxes, it’s subsidized. It’s important to call these out whenever they are be…

[deleted]

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calculating the subsidy associated with state maintenance of roads for private vehicles is difficult. Some basic level of signage and hazard prevention (potholes, ice etc) is necessary for emergency vehicles and other government operations. Thereafter, although there is some maintenance cost associated with the road wear from private vehicles and the additional infrastructure required for higher traffic volumes, we d…

Wouldn't the very patterns of development be different (and more amenable to rail) if the state didn't spend oodles of money building nice roads to make sprawl livable?

Sprawl happens when there is available undeveloped land. Roads are just a symptom.

People build outwards first and then upwards.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get rid of the cleaning staff right now. The terminals will become disgusting and people will stop using them. There is no way around this type of overhead. If you have larger numbers of people passing through, you need cleaning and maintenance. Your original point isn’t even true - in California there is constant maintenance of the road network and crews of community service workers doing their sentence clea…

Roads still have far fewer staff per mile than railways, however you measure. In turn, that makes them cheaper.

Is there a source for this? Is this source heavily context-dependant?

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#199
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> requires an annual subsidy of around €3bn I suspect the key is to find ways to run railways cheaper. It has been a long time since railways were under severe cost competition encouraging people to look for efficiencies. I think the main one would be to find a way for railways to operate with no staff. Just like a typical road operates most of the time with no staff. That means you need to redesign everything that c…

In Japan, rail companies also own the land around the station. There is often a mall or office right on top of the station. So they capture a more of the value of having public transport. In western countries land lords benefit a lot from nearby public transport for free and maybe only contribute in taxes.

Originally, rail worked kind of like this in the US too. Alternating squares of land adjacent to tracks were ceded to railroads, so you'd have sections of public land and private land beside each other.

I learned about this when someone was trying to make a test case of "corner crossing" from one patch of public land to another a while back.

Re: Germany's 49-euro ticket resulted in significant shift from road to rail

#200
post #50

Didn’t this start as unlimited anywhere for 9 euros no strings attached? I LOVE the German transit system (although Denmark wins in cleanliness). However, Germany is a bit predatory with this new system. You can ONLY purchase this ticket as a subscription model. If you’re a tourist, you must cancel before the 10th of the month or you get auto rebilled. Additionally, there are so many apps that resell the ticket as so…

I'm a big fan of public transit, but it's not entirely "baffling" why the US lags European countries (and Japan) - the US is a MUCH larger country.

Somehow that wasn't as much of an obstacle in 1920!
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