Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

191–200 of 657 posts

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#191

Post by count »

eitally wrote: post #159
icyfox wrote: post #79

Right now one of the biggest blockers in on-shoring semiconductor fab at any kind of reasonable price-point and timescale is the lack of a skilled workforce. This legislation has dual objectives: train new people to get into sophisticated manufacturing AND to build out the actual infrastructure itself. That almost guarantees it won't be the most efficient way to actually get these chips on American soil. Whether we l…

I don't buy this for a minute. It's very easy to train people to work in factories and there are lots of Americans willing to do it if the pay is right. These companies are just complaining so they can get more federal handouts to offset the higher labor costs of onshoring.

These are not those kinds of factories, and it's not 'easy' to train for. And Americans are surely WILLING to do the work, but have no idea how.

If it was so goddamned easy to build a chip fab, they'd be all over the place - everybody needs them, and they're extremely strategic.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#192

Post by nickff »

curiousllama wrote: post #165
eitally wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a silly anecdote and I have a hard time believing chip fab line workers are too much different from those in other types of high-tech (where I spent 15 years working on test automation & quality systems). Some smart folks, for sure, but almost zero roles required even actual engineering background. A lot of management had strong technical education, but the vast majority of line workers are just following simp…

Having seen a few 'high tech' places myself: there's high tech, and then there's _high tech_. Assembling a motherboard is to semiconductor fabs as flying a toy drone is to landing a Boeing 747. One you can learn in an afternoon; the other takes years to learn.

You cannot learn to assemble a motherboard using modern manufacturing equipment in an afternoon. Pick-and-place operation is a week-long course alone (specific to that machine, and assuming you are already familiar with the process), and there are at least a screen printer and reflow oven involved as well.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#193

Post by thunkshift1 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #186

> The Biden administration, equipped with $39 billion in subsidies to distribute, IMO this is the major problem in American politics (maybe world too)- That we have the government picking and choosing winners before the game is even played. IMO we should be rewarding the winners in a after a fair game with rules tailored to what we want to incentivize. Eg: A per chip, per TFLOP or other intelligent metric reward AFTE…

> “fair game” : are you certain tsmc has not received handouts from their government

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#194

Post by Aromasin »

no_wizard wrote: post #106

Wouldn't GlobalFoundries (HQ in New York and supposedly on the "Trusted Foundry" list) have made more sense, since they fabricate chips for multiple different companies, where as Intel only makes them for Intel? Boosts a competitor, opens up fab capacity for all and moves the needle on the intentions behind the CHIPS act, all at once.

GlobalFoundries are nowhere near the leading edge on node process, and Intel have opened up their foundries to customers since Pat's return with the advent of IFS: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.htm...

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#196

Post by maerF0x0 »

thunkshift1 wrote: post #193
maerF0x0 wrote: post #186

> The Biden administration, equipped with $39 billion in subsidies to distribute, IMO this is the major problem in American politics (maybe world too)- That we have the government picking and choosing winners before the game is even played. IMO we should be rewarding the winners in a after a fair game with rules tailored to what we want to incentivize. Eg: A per chip, per TFLOP or other intelligent metric reward AFTE…

> “fair game” : are you certain tsmc has not received handouts from their government

I'm not.

But what I'm referring to here is the goal of having American produced chips. If TMSC wants to produce in America, and a foreign government wants to foot the bill, then what would be the issue?

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#197

Post by 7speter »

asabjorn wrote: post #137
hollywood_court wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine we’d have that skilled workforce if companies paid enough. I’m a former construction contractor who reinvented myself as a software developer. Each time I run into one of my former peers in the construction industry I hear the same complaints from them. “We can’t hire any good help.” Yet they are still paying the same non living wages that they have for 30 years.

[flagged]

So is every black or hispanic person trying to get a job in tech or maybe thinking of going back to school to get another degree is a closet communist trying to… destroy institutions? Asking for a friend.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#198

Post by andy_ppp »

I said this about China trying to make chip investments but it applies to the US too. It’s extremely difficult for government to pick who should be winners with investments like this, and then the question of what is next, x-ray lithography, photonics or something else. I suppose this is quite far into the future and a moot point as the AGI will have moved the humans into a simulation by then to avoid any problems with them.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#199

Post by nwiswell »

unyttigfjelltol wrote: post #52
m3kw9 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why pissed off? Intel is the one with experience and the US is desperate de-risking TSMC and control more of the chip as chips is one of the most important resources now and in future. Would they give it to Y-combinator startups? If Yes they would be a fraction of it, Intel earned this by being American and being the cornerstone of American Chip business for past few decades

The US is spinning $1T new public debt every 100 days and there's no credible path to return to a sustainable trajectory. Plus, the poster child for federal corporate welfare-- Boeing-- has not done so well with that largesse, Intel is a rather sad candidate to carry that torch forward.[1] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/04/opinion/pefco-export-impo...

> The US is spinning $1T new public debt every 100 days and there's no credible path to return to a sustainable trajectory.

How are you calculating this? The full-year deficit is running at less than $1T... You aren't counting it when Treasury rolls maturing bonds over into new debt, are you? That's normal and irrelevant.

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/natio...

There's a few things worth mentioning, since after all that is still a big deficit.

1) Debt service costs are over $1T annually, as the end of many years of ZIRP finally starts to bite. There's no guarantee that we return to lower rates in the future, but it's likely, and that will reduce debt service burden over time.

2) Deficits are calculated inclusive of the costs of debt service, but do not include the impact of inflation on the public debt (which is substantial right now).

3) Deficits can absolutely be sustainable. The economy (i.e., GDP) grows over the long term, and the tax base grows with it. GDP is around $23.3T, and assuming long-run 3% growth, that would mean deficits of $700B are sustainable.

Overall the fiscal picture is not great, but anyone acting like there's an acute crisis is probably doing it for political reasons.

Re: Intel to Receive $8.5B in Grants to Build Chip Plants

#200

Post by FpUser »

singhrac wrote: post #122

I think actually the problem with this program is not the recipient (I mean, Intel is literally the only American company building fabs in the US) but the structure. The problem with US fans is that the skilled Taiwanese workforce is simply willing to work for less and more flexibly. We could easily solve that problem if we were willing to do what China is doing, which is paying Taiwanese PhDs, engineers, and technic…

I bet that the minute the US rolls up red carpet to Taiwan's hi tech experts will be the minute Taiwan will fight it either soft way (increase the salaries) or the hard way (introduce the laws preventing them from leaving the country). Should Taiwan loose leading position their value and security guarantees will all go down the toilet.
Post reply on HN