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US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

reuters.com

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Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#191

Post by mrcode007 »

whimsicalism wrote: post #184
qeternity wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was obvious to a lot of people who were wondering what was taking regulators so long.

Interesting, maybe you should let Gensler know that the law is much more obvious than he appears to realize [0] [0]: https://youtu.be/VhA1dZXeao0?t=58

Under the Howey test, the rules are clear.

"The test is whether the scheme involves an investment of money in a common enterprise with profits to come solely from the efforts of others. If that test be satisfied, it is immaterial whether the enterprise is speculative or non-speculative or whether there is a sale of property with or without intrinsic value."

I think it is plausible that all pure staking initiatives will go. I don’t think you have much of an argument here but I could be wrong. It will definitely be an interesting case to watch.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#192

Post by taeric »

vkou wrote: post #173
taeric wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question was literally "is ETH a security?" To compare that to the questions you are stating is laughably bad faith argument. Though, I'll bite. What statement is made by the question "Is ETH a security?" Why is that a question that can't be answered with "Yes", "No", or "it depends how it is packaged"?

The question was literally "Because something cannot be both a security and a commodity, is Eth a security?" The chair's answer was, as we can glean from the interruptions (but who the hell really knows, the man's not allowed to finish a sentence) 'It depends'.

If he was saying "it depends" he had a lot of words to say that. His sentences were like my talking to the kids when I ask "did you do your homework?" It was painful.

And note that some things can be both a security while wrapped around a commodity. Just look at brokered CDs. Such that, even if you agreed that ETH is a commodity, you can still have financial instruments on ETH that are securities.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#193

Post by [deleted] »

detrites wrote: post #136
mrkramer wrote: post #65

Grace period of unregulated crypto is over. Brace yourself, SEC is coming!

The SEC issues fines. To them it's taking a cut, to Binance etc, it's operating expenses. These "enforcements" are more like protection money paid to gangsters. The SEC could have created clarity a decade ago. It's not in their interest to do so, plain and simple. They are incentivised financially, to persist in creating a lack of clarity, and then randomly "enforcing" inconsistently to extract multi-millions off of…

[deleted]

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#194

Post by [deleted] »

chroma wrote: post #82
menthe wrote: post #23

There is a well-documented public history of Coinbase taunting the SEC - they had it coming. - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/the-sec-has-told-us-it-wants-t... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbase-does-not-list-securit... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbases-staking-services-are... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/we-asked-the-sec-for-reasonabl... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbase-takes-another-formal-.…

If criticizing a regulatory body causes them to go after you, then that regulatory body is corrupt and should be dismantled and replaced with something else.

[deleted]

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#195

Post by scottiebarnes »

mulmen wrote: post #163
dcow wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, I think your understanding is behind the curve. Even the SEC says BTC itself is a commodity. You consume a BTC by using/trading it. You consume gold or maple syrup by using/trading it. Just because the uses are a little different doesn't mean it's incompatible with the definition of commodity. If I started using gold in a nonsensical way you wouldn't start saying "oh now it's a security", would you?

I think the hangup with BTC as a commodity is that I can make a loaf of bread with wheat and eat it and the amount of wheat in the world is depleted as a result. Similarly I can use gold to build a cell phone or some jewelry and while it is possible to recover it isn't as simple as trading BTC. How is a BTC consumed ?

The majority of gold usage is in investment/central bank reserve. Technology applications are a fraction of the usage. Jewelry is a major usage, however part of the reason for its use in jewelry is a hybrid combination of its store of value properties (ex. in Indian culture afaik, gold jewelry plays a large part in passing down wealth, families gift gold jewelry at weddings etc.).

So you consume bitcoin the same way a central bank consumes gold: by sitting on it, selling it when you need to, or buying more in times of expected turmoil.

Bitcoin is far younger than gold (12 years vs thousands), so its obviously more volatile.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in...

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#196

Post by arcticbull »

mrkramer wrote: post #68
butlerm wrote: post #48

If you look up the definitions of "security", "financial instrument", "commodity", and "currency", it is pretty clear that a plain vanilla crypto-currency like Bitcoin is no ordinary security nor a financial instrument. It is not a claim on something else, even less so than a traditional bank note. It is more like a commodity. Since when is "aluminum" a security? A crypto currency business however may be engaged in t…

Bitcoin is a commodity [0] under the US Commodity Exchange Act (CEA) and it is regulated by the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC). [0] https://www.cftc.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oceo_bitcoi...

Someone holds an opinion that this is the case, it has not been resolved as a matter of law yet. It could be, in my opinion, a commodity.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#197

Post by dopa42365 »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #55
krunck wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's odd. All these years I thought I was exchanging dollars for Bitcoin for spending it. Thanks for setting me straight.

I know lots of people that own bitcoin. I haven't met anybody that uses bitcoin to spend it on anything. It still makes front page news on reddit if someone does groceries with crypto: https://old.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/13a9q3r/yes... People write articles if a house gets sold with bitcoin: https://finbold.com/house-in-portugal-sold-for-3-bitcoins-in... Spending bitcoin on "stuff" basically doesn't exis…

It's almost as if people don't actually want a multiple dollar transaction fee that can take an hour (or more) to process.

That may be acceptable when you use bitcoin (or more likely Monero) to buy whatever your heart desires, but is absolutely not usable for regular purchases.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#198

Post by dcow »

Analemma_ wrote: post #157
dcow wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two modalities to crypto and the law needs to treat them differently. Running a node on a crypto currency network does not generate securities. It generates commodities. We don't tax people on the FMV of gold when they dig it out of the ground. But, speculating on the price of gold by creating a virtual token/contract/etc. and selling that, well that’s obviously a security. Just because people buy gold spec…

> We don't tax people on the FMV of gold when they dig it out of the ground. Uh, yeah, we definitely do. I have relatives who sell the oil under their property, and that absolutely is taxable income.

The sale is taxable obviously and of course. The same is true for gold and crypto.

But your relatives didn't get a tax bill for 25% of the value of the oil the moment it was prospected, did they? Their land value went up but they weren’t taxed on the value increase either (that happens when the land is sold).

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#199

Post by earnesti »

whimsicalism wrote: post #184
qeternity wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was obvious to a lot of people who were wondering what was taking regulators so long.

Interesting, maybe you should let Gensler know that the law is much more obvious than he appears to realize [0] [0]: https://youtu.be/VhA1dZXeao0?t=58

Crypto people constantly point to this video as some kind of evidence that the SEC is clueless. Maybe it just doesn't make sense for them to give clear answers in that kind of hearings,or answers related to specific crypto token. Just normal for government officials to cover their own asses primarily and giving specific guidance related to a specific issue at a hearing doesn't just serve them well.
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