US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance • Hacker News Board

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#141

Post by MrMan » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

jcranmer wrote: post #120

butlerm wrote: post #48

If you look up the definitions of "security", "financial instrument", "commodity", and "currency", it is pretty clear that a plain vanilla crypto-currency like Bitcoin is no ordinary security nor a financial instrument. It is not a claim on something else, even less so than a traditional bank note. It is more like a commodity. Since when is "aluminum" a security? A crypto currency business however may be engaged in t…

SEC isn't suing Coinbase over Bitcoin. They're suing under two things: 1. Unregistered exchange for several tokens the SEC believes are securities: > This includes, but is not limited to, the units of each of the crypto asset securities further described below—with trading symbols SOL, ADA, MATIC, FIL, SAND, AXS, CHZ, FLOW, ICP, NEAR, VGX, DASH, and NEXO—(the “Crypto Asset Securities”). 2. Unregistered sale of securi…

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Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#142

Post by dcow » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 3:59 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #129

dcow wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the pure commodity coins (layer 1 networks like btc, xch, etc) are confusing at all. You do work and get rewarded with a digital commodity. It’s exactly like digging up gold, or tapping a tree for maple syrup. Then a bunch of crypto anarchists showed up and started speculating that these coins would be worth a lot in the future because we could topple the financial hegemony by their powers combined. Oka…

But what on earth is a digital commodity? I think the whole concept of digital commodity is nonsensical. A commodity is a product. Products are either consumed or used as raw materials. A digital commodity is not a product. It can't be consumed or used, because it's entirely imaginary. I think a better term is "abstract unit of account".

Respectfully, I think your understanding is behind the curve. Even the SEC says BTC itself is a commodity.

You consume a BTC by using/trading it. You consume gold or maple syrup by using/trading it. Just because the uses are a little different doesn't mean it's incompatible with the definition of commodity. If I started using gold in a nonsensical way you wouldn't start saying "oh now it's a security", would you?

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#143

Post by samb1729 » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:00 PM UTC

koonsolo wrote: post #126

soco wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The era of the few crypto billionaires and the crowd of regular Joe money-losers. Ah, those times.

Go and take a look at the long term price of bitcoin. How anyone can lose money in that market is beyond me.

If everyone is supposed to have made money, where did that money come from?

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#144

Post by JohnFen » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:05 PM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #85

JohnFen wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm, OK. Funny that's not how it's been marketed. But I'm baffled as to how cryptocurrency is better for doing that than all of the other ways of doing that.

The drugs I've bought with cryptocurrency have been cheaper and of better quality than the drugs I've bought with dollars, by a wide margin. So there's that. The marketing you're talking about is for the investors. By the nature of the product, the users have powerful adversaries and are probably operating in secret. You can't expect their use cases to show up in the marketing, that would defeat the purpose. Sure, yo…

> in a world where they're more difficult to coordinate against due to a underdeveloped crypto.

This is the part I don't understand. How does cryptocurrency make it easier to coordinate people than all the other tools we have to coordinate people?

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#145

Post by pawelduda » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

menthe wrote: post #23

There is a well-documented public history of Coinbase taunting the SEC - they had it coming. - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/the-sec-has-told-us-it-wants-t... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbase-does-not-list-securit... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbases-staking-services-are... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/we-asked-the-sec-for-reasonabl... - https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbase-takes-another-formal-.…

The old good non-compliant taunting

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#146

Post by cultureswitch » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

gitfan86 wrote: post #139

cultureswitch wrote: post #125

And there we go. The promise of a form of cash outside of USA government control is terrifying to the USA government. And well, most other governments too. It is pretty obvious that when the USA government goes after crypto exchanges, what matters is to get the exchange shut down. The actual justification for doing so is an afterthought. I'm torn on the issue of whether dematerialized privacy-preserving cash (and yea…

That is putting the cart before the horse. The USA is not a libertarian government. Why did anyone think that it was a good idea to invest in products that would only survive in a libertarian government?

Invest?

I think investing in crypto is purely based on greater fool theory.

Doesn't mean there aren't any legitimate uses for cryptocurrency, let alone the blockchain technology.

In this sense, why should Coinbase and a currency exchange booth in some airport be considered any different? Of course, Coinbase doesn't quite operate statelessly like that, and to me that's the issue here.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#147

Post by sjtgraham » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:06 PM UTC

mrkramer wrote: post #68

butlerm wrote: post #48

If you look up the definitions of "security", "financial instrument", "commodity", and "currency", it is pretty clear that a plain vanilla crypto-currency like Bitcoin is no ordinary security nor a financial instrument. It is not a claim on something else, even less so than a traditional bank note. It is more like a commodity. Since when is "aluminum" a security? A crypto currency business however may be engaged in t…

Bitcoin is a commodity [0] under the US Commodity Exchange Act (CEA) and it is regulated by the US Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC). [0] https://www.cftc.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/oceo_bitcoi...

That could change in a second if another agency like the SEC decides it's something else. There is nothing to say that two agencies couldn't hold conflicting positions over what BTC is or isn't.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#148

Post by taeric » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:07 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #131

taeric wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A question where answering easily implies past behavior is very different from one that does not. "Do you think it is ok to beat your spouse?" better not get any slow rolled answer, and is more comparable here. Hell, I'd be fine with a hedged answer of "it can be." That would make a ton of sense and would make sense. Akin to asking "is it speeding to drive your car at 40?" The answer would be "in certain situations,…

Past behaviour isn't the issue. An incorrect assertion is the issue. Let me give you another chance to answer a simple yes or no question. ---- Since it's obvious that democrats are all criminals and baby-eaters, is Elizabeth Warren a democrat? Yes or no. No hemming or hawing. I'll interrupt you as soon as I hear any words besides those two. Your answer or failure to answer will appear as a headline in the New York T…

The question was literally "is ETH a security?" To compare that to the questions you are stating is laughably bad faith argument.

Though, I'll bite. What statement is made by the question "Is ETH a security?" Why is that a question that can't be answered with "Yes", "No", or "it depends how it is packaged"?

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#149

Post by pnpnp » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

strangescript wrote: post #67

pnpnp wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it true that the SEC wouldn’t let Coinbase register since they said Bitcoin _isn’t_ a security? It’s my understanding that Coinbase tried.

If you opened an exchange and did nothing but trade bitcoin, and only bitcoin, you would be free and clear, but there is no real money in that. Coinbase argued a few years ago they were losing to competition because their competitors could do a lot of gray area stuff they couldn't to do being a US-based traded company. Getting listed on Coinbase used to be the gold standard of a trusted, respectable crypto, but they…

Interesting! I hadn’t looked at it this way.

Re: US SEC sues Coinbase, one day after suing Binance

#150

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Tue, Jun 06, 2023, 4:09 PM UTC

johndhi wrote: post #124

Question: is it even possible to register as a security? If you do, what follows? So if SOL for example were to register somewhere, what would they need to do, and what would I need to do to buy it?

There’s no fundamental reason it would be impossible. Solana Labs would need to file a registration statement with the SEC (https://www.sec.gov/education/smallbusiness/goingpublic/regi...) including among other things a description of its business practices and audited financial statements.

Once they did that, you would be able to buy and sell it at any registered exchange who’s willing to list it. Coinbase, maybe, if they’re willing to accept the costs and regulations involved.