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iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

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Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#191

Post by heywoodlh »

jpalomaki wrote: post #180

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and di…

> I don't have much choice

I hope I don't come across as snarky -- I am genuinely curious -- but why don't you have a choice? Are you unable to contact friends, family, etc. any other way outside of FB? The phrasing seems so strong, I am second guessing if I am just privileged/lucky (location, friend/family circumstances, etc?) to be off of social media but still have friends and family that I stay connected to.

EDIT: fixed grammar

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#192

Post by hooby »

chenzhekl wrote: post #183
wvenable wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hardware and software, in any device, should not be so inextricably linked as to prevent the hardware from working at all without the software. Regardless of whether we are taking about iPhones, computers, cars, or farm equipment.

But it is way too hard to cleanly separate the hardware from the software without introducing extra complexity and security issues.

Is it though?

Looking at Linux and all the devices it powers (including most of the internet infrastructure) - it would seem that it is possible to do pretty good security on very open software that's as separate from the hardware as can be.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#193

Post by moonchrome »

geocar wrote: post #140
smoldesu wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a poor justification. You can cleanly implement a signing system for trusted developers (they've done it before), and it's obviously possible to distribute iPhone package files. All the pieces are in place, if it weren't for their $80 billion annual hayday then they wouldn't be dying on this hill in particular. Maybe part of it is this security alignment issue, but upon scrutiny it's clearly a small and solvable…

It sounds more like you’re upset about apples revshare model on their channel; Why do you care if all your competitors also have to pay it? I don’t think the world got better because we got more channels on Tv, and I even think some of them might be dangerous and harmful to life…

> Why do you care if all your competitors also have to pay it?

Did you ever publish to appstore ? The amount of bullshit you have to go through so that an alternative payment method isn't reachable from mobile is insane, and they want % of a lot of things, not just sales/subscription - a lot of business ideas are unviable because of the policy.

Not to mention that your competitors don't have to pay the same, big players get special deals and exemptions, and Apple has first party advantage on the platform.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#194

Post by Derbasti »

jpalomaki wrote: post #180

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and di…

Looking at Android, where sideloading has been available forever, there doesn't seem any evidence of your worry.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#195

Post by FriedPickles »

brenns10 wrote: post #174
FriedPickles wrote: post #148

As the developer of a subscription app, if unfettered side-loading is allowed I'd be worried about cracked versions of my app being distributed. We've done everything in the client for privacy and reliability, but the obvious countermeasure would be to move functionality over to a backend. This would be history echoing the transition from boxed software to SaaS.

Except, side-loading has already existed on Android for... a long time. I regularly install from F-Droid, and it's totally possible to download an .apk from the Internet and install it. If your client was getting "cracked" it could already have been happening on Android for years (assuming you have an Android app). See also: Youtube vanced. So really what you're saying in this comment is that you've written your back…

> what prevents a person from hooking up their phone to a development HTTPS proxy, intercepting the API requests, and making their own cracked client without side-loading at all?

SSL pinning, essentially.

Totally true about Android--it's the smaller platform for us, but the fact we have not seen piracy there yet gives me hope.

To be clear I am in favor of sideloading, and we would benefit from it in several ways.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#196

Post by jb1991 »

heywoodlh wrote: post #191
jpalomaki wrote: post #180

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and di…

> I don't have much choice I hope I don't come across as snarky -- I am genuinely curious -- but why don't you have a choice? Are you unable to contact friends, family, etc. any other way outside of FB? The phrasing seems so strong, I am second guessing if I am just privileged/lucky (location, friend/family circumstances, etc?) to be off of social media but still have friends and family that I stay connected to. EDIT…

I would normally agree with you, but a friend of mine is an immigrant from a south east Asian nation and the only way to easily communicate is through Facebook with the family there. It’s like saying, sure we can take away your phone and you can still write letters, but at some point communication is also about convenience.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#197

Post by seydor »

hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

> you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service

iphones act as social signaling for alot of people

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#198

Post by hooby »

hayst4ck wrote: post #175
hooby wrote: post #143

I think the central question here is: .) whether you buy a phone as a piece of hardware and then own that hardware - which gives you certain rights regarding the usage of that owned hardware or .) whether you are just paying some sort of admission fee to a tightly controlled service, and are basically "lent" a piece of hardware that you have no ownership rights over. All the other stuff about walled gardens, monopoli…

While that might be the choice we're making and it seems like the first is obviously what owning a device should be like. What if I actually want to pay a fee to a tightly controlled service? Like what if I do the math and determine that that benefits me more than actually owning the device? Should a regulatory agency be able to come in and tell this tightly controlled service they aren't doing it right when I am a h…

No, the second is perfectly fine.

I pay a monthly fee for internet - and that's the admission fee I have to pay to access the service. And I get sent a modem/router - a piece of hardware - that I don't own, but that's only being lent to me.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#199

Post by cageface »

jpalomaki wrote: post #180

I think Apple has also done good things with their strict app store policies (from my consumer point of view). Apple has been for example putting limits on data collection and tracking. The main mechanism is to kick apps out from Apps store if they don't play by the rules. I'm worried that side loading will be a step back here. Strong players, like Facebook, may just take their app away from the official store and di…

Defenders of Apple's policies always say you can just use other tech if you don't agree with them. The same principle applies here. If an app requires you to use a third party app store and you don't like it then choose another app.

If you feel compelled to use a product with policies you don't agree with then now you understand how many of us feel about iOS.

Re: iOS 17 app sideloading might only be available in Europe

#200

Post by heywoodlh »

jb1991 wrote: post #196
heywoodlh wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't have much choice I hope I don't come across as snarky -- I am genuinely curious -- but why don't you have a choice? Are you unable to contact friends, family, etc. any other way outside of FB? The phrasing seems so strong, I am second guessing if I am just privileged/lucky (location, friend/family circumstances, etc?) to be off of social media but still have friends and family that I stay connected to. EDIT…

I would normally agree with you, but a friend of mine is an immigrant from a south east Asian nation and the only way to easily communicate is through Facebook with the family there. It’s like saying, sure we can take away your phone and you can still write letters, but at some point communication is also about convenience.

That makes perfect sense, definitely sheds light on the fortunate circumstance I am in of not needing FB to conveniently communicate with my connections. Because, I agree, you should be able to conveniently communicate if you can.
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