Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move • Hacker News Board

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#191

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:01 AM UTC

tibbar wrote: post #33

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out I haven't seen evidence of Neumann's cheating, as is claimed in this comment. Only allegations, which do not look very strong to me.

There are two lines of evidence: first regarding his cheating online, which is easier to do and easier to check. Chess.com banned Hans and put out a statement saying that Hans cheated more often and more seriously than he claimed. [1] The second line of inquiry is statistical analyses of Hans's over-the-board games. See my original comment for one such analysis, but he really has been playing at an absurd level in so…

What a person did at 16 years old is hardly relevant now, and it is definitely immoral to keep bringing it up without new evidence. How long would it take for people like you to stop bringing up 'he has a history of cheating'? 10 years? 20 years? 30 years? 50 years?

He had played at a way more serious events, and still the only 'evidence' of cheating is his relatively good performance. Until someone comes up with an explanation how he is able to cheat with games streamed with delay and after metal detector scanner, I suggest treating Carlsen's behavior as tantrums of a person who can't take a loss.

Also, whatever chess.com says about cheating online is irrelevant, as their methods are known to produce a lot of false positives. Additionally, since recently chess.com is in business relationship with Carlsen, so they can hardly be counted as an independent party in all of this.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#192

Post by Aeolun » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:03 AM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #72

KingMob wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's admitted to cheating in the past. The Bayesian priors for him currently cheating are not the same as for other people.

Sorry but that’s garbage. You either have evidence or you don’t. You can’t just say: once guilty always guilty and be fine with that. I find the general holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude expressed by most armchair commenters extremely off putting.

> You can’t just say: once guilty always guilty and be fine with that.

You absolutely can. Billions of people do it every single day for less reason.

> I find the general holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude expressed by most armchair commenters extremely off putting.

I find the crowd chanting evidence, evidence, evidence off putting.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#193

Post by JakDrako » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:04 AM UTC

manojlds wrote: post #156

rwmj wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any clue how he may be cheating? Apparently they have metal detectors at the events.

Elon and others seems to think beads in the back.

"Hans could play even better with my Hyperpoop."

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#194

Post by Andrew_nenakhov » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #52

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As more evidence comes out I haven't seen evidence of Neumann's cheating, as is claimed in this comment. Only allegations, which do not look very strong to me.

You mean over the board, right? Because he himself has admitted to cheating online twice, but if you think about it even a bit people don't just cheat once, then get caught, then couple years later repeat the process. Most likely he had cheated at least before and between the times he got caught.

Whatever kids do online at 16 yo playing on a second-rate chess site (and chess.com is a second-rate) is hardly relevant to how they play over the board in a top level chess events.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#195

Post by TrackerFF » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:05 AM UTC

qwerty456127 wrote: post #84

tromp wrote: post #23

Applying sound statistical methods to thousands of Niemann games, cheating expert Ken Regan finds no evidence of cheating [1]. > The verdict > Dr. Regan analyzed all of Hans Niemann's games over the last two years, including online games, such as played on Chess.com and their events, and his conclusion is there is no reason whatsoever to suspect him of cheating. The wide range of results in a bell curve, with some go…

How can one even cheat in chess? When I was a kid we used to distract the opponent and move some figures as he didn't watch. Apparently this is not the case but I can hardly imagine another way.

One method I can think of immediately (when playing face-to-face in the same room)

You carry some device which lets you input data, computes the best move, and actuates that response back to you.

Let's say that this device is simply a very small microcontroller which takes in input via some pressure sensor, and outputs via some actuator that creates vibration. You've loaded some chess program onto that microcontroller.

You hide the device somewhere on you, tape the input pressure sensor to your thigh, and paint / cover up the sensor and wire with material similar to your skin. Same with the output actuator.

When it is your turn, you input the current state of the board via the pressure sensor. Input sequence is sent to the program, which calculates best possible move. The output actuator vibrates the sequence of what piece, and where to move.

Probably one of the older tricks in the book, as far as device-guided heating goes.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#196

Post by Aeolun » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:07 AM UTC

Arnavion wrote: post #5

tibbar wrote: post #2

For context, Magnus withdrew from a major tournament last month after losing to Hans. He has not made a statement, but it is understood that he suspects Hans of cheating. Hans has admitted to cheating online, though he denies cheating in person. As more evidence comes out, it seems that Hans has cheated a lot more than he admitted, and potentially over the board as well (for example, this analysis [1] shows that he's…

Even if it turns out Niemann cheated, the way Carlsen is acting coy about it puts me off. The tweet was bad enough (unlike Mourinho he's clearly not in "big trouble" from his insinuation), but this resignation is such a publicity stunt.

The resignation I can live with. The tweet is just attention seeking.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#197

Post by LightG » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:09 AM UTC

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #72

KingMob wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's admitted to cheating in the past. The Bayesian priors for him currently cheating are not the same as for other people.

Sorry but that’s garbage. You either have evidence or you don’t. You can’t just say: once guilty always guilty and be fine with that. I find the general holier-than-thou self-righteous attitude expressed by most armchair commenters extremely off putting.

I suggest cavity inspections before all matches from now on.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#198

Post by FartyMcFarter » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #185

FartyMcFarter wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see what's wrong with Magnus throwing his points away to satisfy his preference. Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. Now, if Magnus has good reason to believe that he's just countering bad sportmanship with his own brand of it, that could perhaps be justified in some circumstances. But to the general audience, it makes chess look really bad.

> Losing games on purpose is unsportsmanlike. So is cheating. At least this is blindingly obvious.

I did address that in my comment.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#199

Post by dane-pgp » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:12 AM UTC

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #157

dane-pgp wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone on Niemann's team could have been feeding him info which "coincidentally" happens to be very useful, without Niemann suspecting where the info came from. (A bug in Carlsen's hotel room?) Someone on Carlsen's team could be encouraging him to focus on lines which they've discovered (through a bug in the hotel room) that Niemann's team is preparing counters for. In both of these cases, the corrupt team member co…

First of all I don't think Niemann has much of a team yet. But the prep leak idea makes no sense. If someone's on Carlsen's team gives Hans "leaked prep", why should he believe them? It could be a red herring. Pretty much every grandmaster who has commented on the prep leak idea has stated it just makes no sense on the face of it.

> First of all I don't think Niemann has much of a team yet.

Maybe he does, or maybe Carlsen thinks he does.

> the prep leak idea makes no sense.

The "malicious person on Carlsen's team" hypothesis I was putting forward didn't involve them leaking the prep to Niemann. I merely supposed that someone in such a position could negatively influence Carlsen's performance, and profit from it through betting.

Re: Magnus Carlsen resigns against Hans Niemann after one move

#200

Post by jpgvm » Tue, Sep 20, 2022, 11:16 AM UTC

smcl wrote: post #176

jpgvm wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will agree with that too, if there is evidence of cheating after previously having claimed to have repented I would be highly unlikely to advocate for a third chance.

As an interesting aside, it looks like we're both in a similar situation - normally non-chess people who have read or watched a bit about this - but we happened to have landed on different opinions (me being a bit suspicious, you being willing to give benefit of the doubt). So it's funny that this issue appears to have divided both insiders and outsiders alike.

I think my experience playing esports (only at a semi-pro/amateur level however), including LAN play somewhat guides my perspective. Cheating is much more common in esports because of the nature of the game. However there are a lot of reformed cheaters that went on to become either amazing players or great people in the scene even if they didn't return to or find success in playing.

Great examples from CS:GO include s1mple, went on to become undisputed GOAT. Steel and the iBuypower crew (not cheating but matchfixing) that eventually became casters/analysts and upstanding members of the community.

In both of these cases the lapses of judgement occurred when the players were young. s1mple got a second chance, iBuypower didn't. I think they should have been offered that same chance as they showed over the years their character wasn't black, they had just made a grave mistake. A more fitting punishment would have been a length limited ban of a year or so, instead they were handed down lifetime bans from official events which I think was too harsh for essentially a bunch of teenagers.