Why America has so few carpenters • Hacker News Board

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#191

Post by baremetal » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:07 PM UTC

davemp wrote: post #64

eftychis wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My great-grandfather and uncle (retired) were carpenters. While carpentry is a great hobby they definitely preferred/liked my professional direction -- at some point lungs, legs, hands, and wood do not like each other.

Well considering the culture on most job sites includes ridiculing people for wearing safety glasses and dust masks, there’s definitely room for improvement.

every job site ive been on, no one ridiculed me for wearing safety glasses or dust masks. quite the opposite.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#192

Post by baremetal » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:09 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #13

oh_sigh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Carpenters get RSI all the time too - or neuralgia e.g swinging a hammer 1,000 times a day for 30 years will take a toll on your elbow.

You realize hammers are a last resort tool these days when you can't get a nail gun somewhere.

you realize hammers are used all the time in carpentry still. what do you do if your gun doesnt sink the nail? or the boards didnt fasten tight together after nailing. or you need to pull a nail. or wedge or lever or...

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#193

Post by carapace » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:13 PM UTC

What I get from the comments so far: the pay is too low and construction wrecks your body. This implies that our towns and cities are built on the wrecked bodies of the underpaid folks who build them. It's not a pleasant thought. Does it have to be this way?

The Amish come together and build each other's barns still: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_raising I wonder if something like that could work on a larger scale? Cathedrals come to mind.

Christopher Alexander meant for his Pattern Language to be used in situ by the people who were going to be using or living in the buildings, not just to design the buildings but also to construct them themselves. He was experimenting with a kind of foam concrete that is easy to work. I don't want to go off on it here but check out e.g. https://www.domegaia.com/ for DIY "aircrete" dome homes, equipment, and classes. "Aircrete" is fireproof (you can make a fireplace out of it) and waterproof (you can build boats out of it) it's durable yet it can be cut with a hand saw and you can use nails with it. There are companies that make and build with aircrete blocks like LEGO bricks.

- - - -

Bucky Fuller wanted to build high-tech houses in factories, deliver them by helicopter to prepared sites that had a mast or pole. The houses would be lowered onto the masts, tied down, hooked up to utilities, and you're done. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_house

We've got kit homes and pre-fab construction now. There's a 22-unit housing complex at 2711 Shattuck in Berkeley that was built in four days. https://sf.curbed.com/2018/8/6/17656118/fast-apartment-resid...

Interestingly, "... the cost of trucking [the modules] to Berkeley from the port of Oakland was more expensive than the cost of shipping from Hong Kong." https://www.berkeleyside.org/2018/08/02/prefab-housing-compl...

The building has a website: https://www.panoramic.com/cityspace-location/shattuck-berkel...

I think there's a lot of potential for simpler, more high-tech building systems.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#194

Post by the_only_law » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:17 PM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #52

coldtea wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are not upping pay, because it's not profitable. They could raise their prices too. When they say "it's not profitable" they mean "we would like to have workers at low pay, but still enjoy selling at low prices".

then you lose to cheaper competitors. there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates.

> there is a market for hand-made furniture but Ikea stuff dominates.

And boyyyyy is there a gap between these. I feel like I’m either paid $100 for shitty pressboard or thousands upon thousands for hardwood.

Thankfully, there are some decent pieces left from 50 or so years ago that are both solid and dirt cheap at thrift/antique shops.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#195

Post by [deleted] » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:21 PM UTC

throwaway892238 wrote: post #94

Another part of it is the social programming. If you're an uneducated poor white male, it's easy to see a path into construction. If you're an uneducated poor black male, going into construction might as well be becoming an astronaut. Or to flip that around, imagine being an uneducated poor white male in Cleveland, Ohio and suddenly believing you could easily be a successful rapper. If your family, friends, neighborh…

[deleted]

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#196

Post by I-M-S » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:23 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #72

toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity (with a fair amount of help from globalization efforts). Until the scales tip (and there are signs we’re headed there) and labor has more power with stronger unions, people should not expect workers to take garbage jobs (even in trades w…

> The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity This is a really lazy analysis that ignores all of the productivity gains that came from automation and information technology. People who put together cars didn’t start making less money, they got replaced by robots.

Between OP's analysis and your reply, there's only one I'd dare to call lazy.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#197

Post by ricardobayes » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:24 PM UTC

blagie wrote: post #148

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

My experience with shorter versus longer jobs, in the tech industry, consulting a few years back: - 30-60 minute consultations, I need to charge $600/hour minimum to make ends meet - 1-2 week gigs, I need to charge $300/hour minimum to make ends meet - 6-36 month gigs, I need to charge $100/hour minimum to make ends meet Making ends meet means covering mortgage, health care, etc., not having a decent lifestyle. There…

Any tips on how to get into software consultancy?

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#198

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:29 PM UTC

masonic wrote: post #97

Spooky23 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way it works is you have a subcontractor pay an immigrant under the table and get it done. The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Guess what? There’s no labor. Who would have thunk it.

>The US clamped down on Mexican border crossings. Now , the border is more porous than ever. There's plenty of labor -- go to any home improvement store parking lot. And that's just the illegal labor -- boost wages and you could recapture legal workers. But for now, go to any construction site in California, and you'll hear only Spanish spoken between the carpenters, roofers, etc. and their supervision.

So the angry man on the radio says.

Back here on earth, roofers are making $36/hr. My brother’s restaurant is paying $28-32/hr for line cooks and dishwashers.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#199

Post by donthellbanme » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:31 PM UTC

deepsun wrote: post #132

jimnotgym wrote: post #128

I left a job as a carpenter and joiner in 2008 when work dried up. My father stayed at it. I had done some study with the open university and used that to get into office work in Finance. I miss using tools, but I don't miss the way you had to rush to make money. I always did a good job, but it was constant pressure. The article mentions that the longer time on the job reduces what can be paid vs a plumber. This is t…

But imagine how it was 50 years ago. Pretty much the same, minus health security.

No post body was provided.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#200

Post by rdm_blackhole » Sun, May 22, 2022, 2:35 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #179

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #143

I would say this is not just a problem in the US. In France there is the same problem. The wages just aren't worth it for this kind of hard work. A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience. Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting…

Thank you to share these experiences. Real question: You wrote: > Is this "having fun" drinking or "reduce the pain" drinking? Either way, I can see how alcohol could increase risk on a construction site.

By drinking on the job, I mean drinking a bottle of red wine at lunch time for example. Also having a few beers around 3 pm. Then going back to the pub around 5 pm with your coworkers. Arriving on a job site hungover from the night before was a regular occurrence.

When I was working with some old timers, some of them would start the day by going to the pub at 7:00 am and order a few shots of hard liquor to start the day(especially on cold days). In France, pubs/cafes open really early...