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Why America has so few carpenters

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Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#171

Post by refurb »

nickelpro wrote: post #134
refurb wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer? If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well.

> You think everyone can be an electrical engineer? Or even wants to be an electrical engineer? No, that's why I said: > There will be some small handful, but the incentives push strongly towards one over the other. - > If you look at when the trades start earning and if they are willing to go where the high pay is (just like some CS guy won’t make FAANG wages in Ohio), they can do very well. Of course, and if you lo…

Maybe you can try again? I’m still not sure the point you’re making.

I mean, no, someone who wants to be an engineer won’t choose the trades. But they wouldn’t do it regardless. That’s not the point.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#172

Post by zamfi »

iandanforth wrote: post #165
gumby wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The other big change I saw was the nailgun and chopsaw revolution This. I hired a union shop to build my house, and am thankful for it. for various reasons, construction is mostly lowest quality possible, but everybody on my house had a ticket and the result is obvious (not just appearance but lower cost of maintenance). When I worked at Terrajoule we were not a union shop but we often hired union contractors for s…

"had a ticket" <- I'm not familiar with this phrase. Can you tell us where it comes from?

Probably “had a union ticket”, i.e., were a member of the union.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#173

Post by coldcode »

analog31 wrote: post #57
kixiQu wrote: post #16

My parents met when they were both working construction. My mom was a surveyor and a laborer at various times; she helped get my dad into the union (Philly) and he was a carpenter. My mom stopped it to raise me and my sibling; my dad did it until it entirely broke his body. (I would not be writing this as a college-educated adult if he hadn't had a union pension that kicked in on disability.) I know precisely one per…

In addition to the inherent physical nature of the work, another problem is working for small businesses that fly under the radar of OSHA and other regulations. Also, family owned businesses don't have a "normal" career advancement process unless you belong to the family. When people come to work on my house, I've noticed that everybody who is around my age (58) is hobbling and broken.

I've been fortunate in finding a remodeling contractor that hires people who know what they are doing and pays them minimum of $30/hr and is insured/licensed. So far most of them have done excellent work. Some are purely carpenters, some are mostly painters, some have multiple skills. I talk with them and most could work for large construction companies building hotels and apartments (lots of that going on here) but prefer working 40 hr weeks working on people's homes. The carpenter (now retired) did a bunch of work in my house and was amazing to watch.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#174

Post by mauvehaus »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #90
georgeoliver wrote: post #28

You can make a living as a carpenter, and the work is often glorious, but like lots of industries wealth is often built on the exploitation of labor. Unions have been gutted over the last 100 years, so if you want to run an honest business and earn a good income you need to do high-end work. But who are you working for? The upper classes. Of course these lawyers, doctors, engineers, etc. are not specifically to blame…

I remember watching a presentation on a high-end woodworker who just happened to be the son of a celebrity. He was working quite a bit with vacuum formed pieces that would sell for several thousand dollars in the 90s, with enough capital outlay from his father's money that he could build a dozen or so items at a time. It was then that I realized that the ability to make a living from crafting high-quality, modern fur…

I'm a furniture maker. I come to the field with a lot of privilege having worked software for some years previously (but not earning FAANG retire early money), and having a spouse whose job provides considerable stability and health insurance.

You don't need high end vacuum forming equipment to make beautiful, high-end furniture. There are certainly styles for which that would be required, but through human history, people built furniture not only without that equipment, but also wholly without power tools.

You can built modern-looking work using very traditional techniques. I would go out on a limb and claim that stuff that requires truly modern equipment looks "weird", even to a modern eye because we have thousands of years of a furniture record of stuff put together using the same basic techniques.

A joined chair looks like a joined chair whether it's some frilly French thing or some staid and severe English thing. A staked chair looks like a staked chair whether it's some high-style Windsor or a milking stool. A Thonet rocking chair looks f*cking wild because it departs from thousands of years of practice of how people make chairs. It still looks wild, over 150 years after its introduction.

Even a Maloof rocker is made with fairly well-established techniques. I don't say that to take anything away from his design, but to illustrate that you can build very contemporary furniture without making a wild departure from the practice and tools that have served furniture makers for a very long time.

Edited to add: I think I could have become a very good carpenter, but I went into furniture because you find older people still working as furniture makers, and damn few working as carpenters.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#176

Post by hitpointdrew »

I don’t know who did the research on this, or maybe I just live in an insanely expensive area, but the 2021 hourly rate for plumbers and electrician’s is laughable. The chart shows roughly $30 an hour. I can’t find one for under $100 in my are to save my life, most charge $150-$200 per man hour.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#177

Post by treis »

kortilla wrote: post #72
toomuchtodo wrote: post #33

The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity (with a fair amount of help from globalization efforts). Until the scales tip (and there are signs we’re headed there) and labor has more power with stronger unions, people should not expect workers to take garbage jobs (even in trades w…

> The last 50 years of American prosperity was built primarily on the exploitation of labor as unions declined and Capital starting consuming an outsized amount of Labor’s productivity This is a really lazy analysis that ignores all of the productivity gains that came from automation and information technology. People who put together cars didn’t start making less money, they got replaced by robots.

They did start making less money too. Factories moved away from union dominated places to lower waged non-union states. Even the unions ended up selling out and lowered wages for new members to protect their own pay.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#178

Post by hitovst »

Cities/specialization is a luxury. The trade off is relationship to reality. People who build tangible things with their hands are relatively more grounded in reality.

When you pull the elephant's trunk, either the light comes on, or it doesn't. There is little room for delusion.

The more people who can and do use an "app for that" in their daily lives, and are hours away from whatever they need/want, the fewer tradesman there likely will be.

The pendulum swinging back in the direction of builders is when all the specialists have to bid against each other, exchanging an acceptable medium of exchange, for the tradesman's services, as they can do little themselves.

The more densely populated the area, the more likely it will seem there are a shortage of carpenters, or other tradesman, and in the more rural, free, and independent , areas, the less the need for carpenters, as there are fewer specialists, and more capable, "Jack of all trades", types.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#179

Post by throwaway2037 »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #143

I would say this is not just a problem in the US. In France there is the same problem. The wages just aren't worth it for this kind of hard work. A good carpenter I knew a while back was making maybe at best 2500 euros per month with overtime after tax with more than 10 years of experience. Despite being a team leader he still had to lift, bend and work just like his subordinates. You could tell that it was starting…

Thank you to share these experiences. Real question: You wrote: > Is this "having fun" drinking or "reduce the pain" drinking? Either way, I can see how alcohol could increase risk on a construction site.

Re: Why America has so few carpenters

#180

Post by gumby »

zamfi wrote: post #172
iandanforth wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"had a ticket" <- I'm not familiar with this phrase. Can you tell us where it comes from?

Probably “had a union ticket”, i.e., were a member of the union.

Yes, and it specifies whether they are apprentice, journeyman, master, as well as other skills (e.g. rated for welding high pressure lines).
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