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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#191

Post by pjmlp »

tkubacki wrote: post #184

I've quite unique experience beeing .net dev turning into jvm ecosystem. My decision to switch was based on fact that web is growing and .Net is simply...not fitting there. Specifically what I mean is current VS is just not usable for web dev (comparing to Jetbrains tools), but what is even more important - there is nothing close to Spring Boot in terms of ecosystem richness (important for corpos) and even newest .ne…

I have done both since they exist, alongside C++ and Web, and regardless of Microsoft tries to sell, UNIXy shops don't care about .NET Core.

Sure, C# is more pleasant to use than Java, and the language has almost C++ like capabilities for low level coding, but it lacks the 25 years of cross platform experience. And one can always include a native library if required, JNI might be boilerplate but it doesn't bite.

One cannot pick random .NET library and use it on .NET Core, most likely it is using .NET Framework APIs, COM or Win32 calls.

So already there, the ecosystem is reduced to the libraries whose authors have bothered to port to .NET Standard or Core.

Then issues like this, or how MAUI is being handled versus what Uno and Avalonia achieved on their own, show the ongoing power struggle.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#192

Post by brtkdotse »

fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

> The Visual Studio side seems to be in a more difficult position, I assumed they can just live from the enterprise/everyone else split and focus on enterprise-y stuff to still sell Visual Studio.

While VS is my daily driver and I prefer it to Code and Rider, I have no idea how they make a profit. _No one_ buys the retail sticker priced SKUs, you either go through MSDN or Microsoft Partner Network and pay a fee hundred € for access to basically everything Microsoft puts out.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#193

Post by DeathArrow »

babypuncher wrote: post #102
nodejs_rulez_1 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rider is a non-starter - doesn't even have a community edition.

This is what keeps me on Visual Studio. It's free for personal and open-source use, so I use it at home. Since I know it and am familiar with it, I make my employer pay for a commercial license at work. In the grand scheme of things, it is not that expensive in a commercial setting. VS Code is great, but I do not think it is a comprehensive replacement for Visual Studio proper when doing full stack .NET development.

I feel like VS Code might be better fit for Typescript, Javascript, Python. For C# and C++ I would prefer Visual Studio.

Even with extensions, VS Code feels like an text editor.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#194

Post by pjmlp »

DeathArrow wrote: post #188

If they aren't making a huge revenue from Visual Studio, it might be worth to open source it, too. It would be a a massive win in gaining developers.

They surely are, even with plugins VSCode is glorified editor versus what can be done in Professional and Enterprise editions of VS.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#195

Post by pjmlp »

the_duke wrote: post #147

This is not directly related, but I think Microsoft regrets the commoditization of language editing features via LSP. In hindsight, editor independent language IDE features driven via a client-server model are such an obvious idea - to the point that I wonder why it took so long for this model to emerge. It makes so much sense to build the IDE features a single time, ideally re-using parts of the compiler infrastruct…

Actually it started with Visual Age IDEs, then Eclipse, Monaco editor and finally VSCode, given Erich Gamma's background.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hilznKQij7A

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#196

Post by DeathArrow »

gbraad wrote: post #103
babypuncher wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what keeps me on Visual Studio. It's free for personal and open-source use, so I use it at home. Since I know it and am familiar with it, I make my employer pay for a commercial license at work. In the grand scheme of things, it is not that expensive in a commercial setting. VS Code is great, but I do not think it is a comprehensive replacement for Visual Studio proper when doing full stack .NET development.

You can use OmniSharp. It is not ideal, but makes life easier. Though it seems MS actively disallows employees to come n tribute to them. If you do GUI work, you pretty much have to use VS. :-/

Intellisense is not that good. Intellicode is missing. Managing nugget packages is not so well integrated. It's harder to debug and investigate memory leaks. I can't see code coverage in the editor or run tests with right click straight from the method I want to test.

It's usable for sure but the development it's not as fast as in Visual Studio.

I still use VS Code if I want to modify some files like XML, json, yaml, and I don't want to fire another instance of Visual Studio for that.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#197

Post by eitland »

DeathArrow wrote: post #190
eitland wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's just looking for similar words. Presumably you are not using anything built on the Eclipse, Jetbrains or NetBeans with any language they support? (PHP, Java, Kotlin, Python) Because out of the box and without any extras all these three beat Visual Studio easily once you start doing…

If you want to use JetBrains tools with C# you have to buy Rider. Visual Studio is free for use unless you are a big company.

Correct, although for many (most?) of Jetbrains products it is free for students and one can apply for licenses for open source work.

That said, for most .Net devs I know the first thing they do after installing Visual Studio is installing Resharper just to get it up to the same level that IntelliJ (including the open source community edition), NetBeans and Eclipse (both open source) provide out of the box.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#198

Post by liversage »

foepys wrote: post #183
rk06 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, vs2022 is 64bit.

And they promptly shot themselves in the foot with it as you now need 64bit components for their form designers, even if you exclusively build 32bit apps. If you maintain an application with legacy form components that are only available in 32bit, you now need to continue using VS2019. Granted, who builds 32bit in year 2022 but VS claims to support 32bit, which it actually doesn't fully. There is still a chance that…

Perhaps that's one of the reasons they have didn't switch to 64 bits earlier? If the IDE is a 64 bit process it can only render external components at design time if they are 64 bits. To be able to render 32 bit components at design time they would need to be hosted in another 32 bit process. I can see how that feature would be complicated and expensive to develop.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#199

Post by DeathArrow »

oneplane wrote: post #129
enhray wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

I doubt that. Unless you specifically target win32 and its non-core replacements (like classic full-fat C#) there is nothing that VS has to offer that outdoes other programs. For the non-web world specifically, the part that was Windows Server and Windows Desktop is simply a dead end outside of niches. And within the niches, comparisons are not all that relevant since... they are niches. If you have a specific job fo…

I do not think Windows desktop is a niche. It doesn't have the same percent of development it used to, but in absolute numbers it didn't decline. Many people are using the Windows desktop and many old and new software is being developed.

Speaking of which, I feel the need to rant a bit: developing for Windows using QT is much more nicer than with any MS framework. MFC is a nightmare. Windows Forms was deprecated in favor of WPF which no one cares about. From C# you can't use Direct X or Vulkan with ease.

Maybe MAUI will bring a better experience. But they need to do something for C/C++, too. Maybe buy the rights to use QT and integrate it with Visual Studio if they don't want to develop a good framework. Or buy the framework from Embarcadero (the one used by C++ buulder). But don't force people into MFC mess. I presume that even their own developers hate MFC with passion.

Winapi was ok in the 80s. MFC was ok in the 90s but we are in 2020s.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#200

Post by DeathArrow »

fabian2k wrote: post #41
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

I mean at this point I have truly no idea what I'm talking about. But I would always bet on Azure against Visual Studio in a fight. The earning potential for Azure is simply far, far higher than for Visual Studio. AWS has shown that the cloud is a recipe for printing money, and I trust Microsoft to follow the money.

I've always thinked of MS as filled with old fashioned managers, caring only about legacy stuff and killing any good initiative MS Research came out with.

I was amazed they'd try something new like cloud. I thought they will stick to the desktop and and MS Office until someone will snatch it from their dead cold hands. But Ballmer went and Nadella came. I still think that the company has a lot of Ballmers hidden in a lot of places, waiting for the opportunity to pull the breaks if they sniff that something interesting might happen.

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