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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

devblogs.microsoft.com

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Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#181

Post by foepys »

ziml77 wrote: post #136
blibble wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep, modern Visual Studio is a terrible experience end-to-end it takes at least 3 minutes to start, the UI designer takes 30+ seconds to appear, and starting your process for debugging takes 10+ seconds every single autocomplete takes a few seconds to appear even opening a 100 line .c file takes 10+ seconds, and they KNOW its bad because it pops up a dialog with a progress bar! this is all on a azure "cloud" instance…

Are you loading your projects from a network mount? Because the timings you're giving don't make any sense for those specs. I could believe it if the files aren't local though since VS does a lot of disk IO in the solution directory.

A company I worked for used network shares for years for C# projects. It was a tad bit slower loading the solution but if you didn't know, you'd never notice.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#182

Post by DeathArrow »

fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

Hot reload was removed from the .NET 6 code at request of Julia Liuson, corporate vice president of Microsoft's Developer Division. She probably hoped she will sell a few more licenses of Visual Studio by gimping the open source tooling.

Maybe Satya should keep an eye on her.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#183

Post by foepys »

rk06 wrote: post #141
thrower123 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can trace a lot of these problems to their bone-headed decision about a decade ago where they refused to see where things were going and kept rationalizing not moving to 64-bits. I have some moderately sized solutions that take forever to open and chug to a halt and start paging like crazy with unresponsive UI if I don't disable all the code inspections and Intellisense. This is on a brand-new i7 with 32GB of RAM…

FWIW, vs2022 is 64bit.

And they promptly shot themselves in the foot with it as you now need 64bit components for their form designers, even if you exclusively build 32bit apps.

If you maintain an application with legacy form components that are only available in 32bit, you now need to continue using VS2019.

Granted, who builds 32bit in year 2022 but VS claims to support 32bit, which it actually doesn't fully.

There is still a chance that they will fix this before release but I highly doubt it.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#184

Post by tkubacki »

I've quite unique experience beeing .net dev turning into jvm ecosystem. My decision to switch was based on fact that web is growing and .Net is simply...not fitting there.

Specifically what I mean is current VS is just not usable for web dev (comparing to Jetbrains tools), but what is even more important - there is nothing close to Spring Boot in terms of ecosystem richness (important for corpos) and even newest .net 5 is much more cumbersome compared to eg. golang (important for startups).

Don't get me wrong - I do like C# - it is a nice language (at some point it was better than Java), but current Java and other jvm langs and tooling (lombok) are great too or better (Kotlin) and current web/cloud ecosystem is all but not .net related.

if you develop for windows desktop or some .net oriented organization (some do politicall decisions) use .net, but if you can make your own decision and you develop for web/cloud just don't use .NET

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#185

Post by DeathArrow »

oaiey wrote: post #39
fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

I still like very much the experience of developing on Visual Studio. And it's not about visual designers because I don't do Windows Forms and WPF. Intellisense and intellicode do a wonderful job with code suggestions, there are lots of tools for formatting, debugging, jumping through code, refactoring, each accessible through shortcuts. It makes the development much faster for me compared to using a text editor.

And when .NET MAUI will ship, I guess we will have a visual designer for that.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#186

Post by DeathArrow »

ynx wrote: post #121
oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

As a very longtime iOS and Linux dev turned Windows and .NET dev (with some rust on the side) - who has used VSCode, VS, and Xamarin for multiple years - no. There is a place for a featureful IDE with robustly implemented build, debug, and package management capabilities working out of the box with multiple languages and entrenched technologies. I do very much like VSC and use it all the time for anything involving t…

Even doing Android development with Kotlin feels nice on Visual Studio due to the integration with the emulator.

What doesn't feel so nice it's writing C/C++ as intellisense does not help as much as it does for other languages.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#187

Post by ayende »

oneplane wrote: post #129
enhray wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

I doubt that. Unless you specifically target win32 and its non-core replacements (like classic full-fat C#) there is nothing that VS has to offer that outdoes other programs. For the non-web world specifically, the part that was Windows Server and Windows Desktop is simply a dead end outside of niches. And within the niches, comparisons are not all that relevant since... they are niches. If you have a specific job fo…

Debugging in code vs in VS is a totally different environment. VS had a fat better debug experience

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#189

Post by Too »

pritambaral wrote: post #157
colejohnson66 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow, Which is? Email lists? GitHub is much easier to deal with than scouring through email threads. It may work for Linux, GNU, and more, but it doesn’t for the majority of devs.

Email isn't the only way Git is used. In fact, email is explicitly external to Git; Got just cooperates well with it. You know what else Git cooperates with better? Push, pull, rebase, squash, a whole world of branching strategies etc. GitHub's PR model is artificially gimped against many useful features of git, to the point where I suspect they actively hate users creating commits and want themselves to be the only…

Do you have any suggestion for alternative systems, which uses this supposedly "real" git flow, paired with reviews?

All the git operations you listed work perfectly fine locally on a repo from github, it's only once you want to push to main you have to go through the review-gate and that's configurable.

Gitlab works mostly the same as Github, and for both of them you can configure the merge-strategy and PR requirements per repo. Next competitor in line would be Gerrit with a quite different approach, which is more based on single commits rather than branches and pull-requests, but in a way their refs/for/master is very similar to a PR except it doesn't have a branch-name and you don't need to fork the repo first, but under the hood you could say a patchset on a change is the same as a commit on a branch sent for PR.

In the end, they are all the same and you learn to work with it. None of them really fight against the core of git.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#190

Post by DeathArrow »

eitland wrote: post #174
creato wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

> The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's just looking for similar words. Presumably you are not using anything built on the Eclipse, Jetbrains or NetBeans with any language they support? (PHP, Java, Kotlin, Python) Because out of the box and without any extras all these three beat Visual Studio easily once you start doing…

If you want to use JetBrains tools with C# you have to buy Rider. Visual Studio is free for use unless you are a big company.
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