Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#191

Post by drran » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:58 PM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #159

brutt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People of Alaska will declare independence (with little help of Russian tourists, journalists, and some honest news). This will not trigger a war, right? Independent Democratic People Republic of Alaska will join Russian Federation next day after that. Job is done.

Just in case the original Alaska message was not sarcasm. States can not secede from the US. Do a little reading on this. And if they try there will be action from the rest of US starting from police and up to full blown military enforcement. And if Russia will try to protect said state we will have nice little nuclear war. Say bye to your iPhone and Hacker News.

Crimea cannot secede from the Ukraine. Was not a problem, solved with lots of honest news made by Russian journalists with help of Russian green (khaki) tourists.

Ukraine started full-blown military operation. Not a problem, because war was triggered on Donbass, part of Ukraine which is not annexed.

Ukraine is post-nuclear country, so it can nuke Russia. Not a problem, because of fear of MAD.

Please, invent something new.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#192

Post by cpursley » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

brutt wrote: post #121

knolax wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But concepts like "Russian" and "Ukrainian" are time period specific. I think GP is saying that the area has been Russian-majority every since when the distinction between Russian and Ukrainian came into existence.

Distinction between Russians and Ukrainians started after rename of (Kievan) Russia into Ukraine in 1908, when delegates from whole Russia Empire made decision to change name, to move away from Moscow. After Soviet Revolution, Ukrainians started Great Ukrainization, with it peak in 1929. At it peak, 81 millions of Ukrainians (Russians) and 77 millions of Russians (Russish) were counted in 1926. This was perceived as…

Holodomor was terrible. There's a very sombering museum in Kiev covering this horrific and intentional mass murder.

Holodomor Genocide Museum Lavrska St, 3, Kyiv, Ukraine, 02000

https://maps.app.goo.gl/NFibayzi54uRPLyu6

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#193

Post by krick » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 9:59 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #123

pishpash wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Confederacy also became independent for a few years, before being reabsorbed under the gun. How long do you keep depicting a fiction?

The Confederacy wasn't a distinct nation state but a faction in Civil War. Noone argues that Whites and Reds in Russia were independent nations, or would you? Take Finland: it gained independence in much the same circumstances as Baltic states. The only difference was that USSR was not able to fully occupy it in 1940. That's it, there is no other reason an average Russian would scoff at Balts and respect Finland than…

What does it even mean to be a "distinct nation" really? For what it's worth, Crimea, which is the main arguing point of the whole thread, doesn't really have a distinct nation either, people there are and always have been pretty much Russian for all practical purposes, even while being a part of Ukraine. And while this isn't true for Latvia, this isn't any more true for Kalmykia (which no one argues over) either. In fact, I'd say the opposite is true.

So I call bullshit any attempts to paint things black and white here.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#194

Post by vogre » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

brutt wrote: post #132

salimmadjd wrote: post #77

Interesting historical background (not taking sides here). Russia sold Alaska to America to pay for the debt accrued from the Crimean War.[0] It was Nikita Khrushchev who decided to hand over Crimea as territory of Ukraine.[1] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Purchase [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

Ukraine was much larger before Soviet invasion. Crimea and Kuban were removed first, then Crimea granted back in exchange of other territories of same size at North and East of Ukraine, then Crimean is captured again. Never trust Russians.

Kuban and Crimea was conquered by Russian Empress Catherine the Great from Ottomans and local Golden Horde debrises.

Ukraine was never considered non-Russian state until the fall of Soviets in 199x. Even when it gained short independency in 1917 by the rulings of the Brest Peace, it proclaimed itself as part of some new Russian Federation(that idea was not really liked by bolsheviks and they eliminated that state).

Even then Crimea wasn't the part of the Ukraine. It was added to Ukraine only in 1954, when Ukrainian-born Khruschev gave it to Ukraine without some plebiscite or other voting.

There were some lands that were really given to Ukraine for exchange for Kuban - the West Ukraine, which belonged to Poland before WWII.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#195

Post by pintxo » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:01 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #180

evgenyp wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Don‘t be crazy /s/

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#196

Post by drran » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:02 PM UTC

mzs wrote: post #138

FpUser wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect Russia to continue doing these sorts of things while the world frets. I think the situation with Crimea is unique as there is a set of multiple historical, racial, political etc. etc. factors not present anywhere else. What else could Russia possibly annex without triggering major war and world mayhem?

the rest of Donbass

War on Donbass is used by Russia to keep Crimea intact. Russia is not interested in these ruins, until Ukraine will rebuild Donbass again.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#197

Post by vogre » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:03 PM UTC

ponsin wrote: post #157

I don't know the specifics of Crimea that well but there should be some easy heuristics to see who owns what country. - When items are sold, which country collects sales tax? - Who provides the police, driver license, mail? - If there are elections, who to the people vote for? Does Crimea not have simple answers to those questions?

It does.

Russia does it all.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#198

Post by input_sh » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:06 PM UTC

Razengan wrote: post #180

evgenyp wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kashmir has been disputed between India and Pakistan for several decades now.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that.

Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India (decades ago, it would have been the opposite).

Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#199

Post by dangus » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #65

dangus wrote: post #13

This sort of thing happened long before technology provided mapping programs. I wonder if anyone is familiar with how these things played out in the days of published maps? I’m no historian myself. But I’m sure some map publisher had to begrudgingly admit that “their side lost” at some point. Here’s the thing, once enough time passes, you have to start to consider that Crimea may never return to Ukrainian control. Ju…

The USA used to depict Baltic states as Soviet-occupied independent states on the maps, and didn't budge until USSR fell apart and the countries regained independence. Growing a spine to stand up for what is right helps. Appeasing a bully is certainly going to cement status quo.

Yes, and that was largely the subjective opinion of those US-based map publications.

A US-adversary might want to call Puerto Rico a US-occupied independent state and they’d have similar justification.

What is “right” in global politics is highly subjective.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#200

Post by vogre » Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 10:08 PM UTC

ir77 wrote: post #154

SebastianKra wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're indirectly saying is: Apple should break the law in countries that don't follow western ideals. This is a slipppery slope. Do you really want companies to fight over what they think is morally right? ...because then get ready for Xiaomi sending the floor plan from your Roomba straight to the chinese government. ...or what if Telegram suddenly started banning gay users because that's obviously wrong and im…

But Apple is already doing that - they’re building their perception, at least in USA, as freedom of speech and privacy fighting company, with Tim leading the way sharing his personal experience being a gay man. Where is Tim’s aversion to oppression and discrimination when it comes to standing up to Russia and China? If Tim was an open gay Joe Schmo waking around in st Petersburg he would be considered a criminal. So…

> If Tim was an open gay Joe Schmo waking around in st Petersburg he would be considered a criminal.

It's not true. There are some laws against LGBT in Russia, but being gay is not prosecuted.

But there are sure some anti-gay laws in Saudi Arabia, which, AFAIK is not suppressed by any of US sanctions.