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Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

cleantechnica.com

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Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#191

Post by [deleted] »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #126
fjfaase wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.

> An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this w…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#192

Post by mrweasel »

oldandboring wrote: post #183
dogma1138 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think you realize how much cars cost in Norway the country has an effective tax rate on cars that is over 100%. A new Ford Focus with all taxes and fees will cost you around $50,000, the base model without fees alone starts at around $35,000 (320,000 NOK). That’s a $12-13K car in the US, a Tesla on the otherhand might cost you even lower than the US sticker price under some circumstances, especially on the of…

The 2018 Focus had a starting MSRP around $17.5k. I'm not really sure what they actually listed for at dealerships and I'm having a hard time finding info on the 2019 Focus being sold in the US. But, yeah obviously this is a much less expensive car in the US. $50k for a compact is ridiculous.

The Focus isn’t considered a compact car in countries like Denmark, where it’s priced similarly to Norway. The Focus is a midsize car.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#193

Post by chrisseaton »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #126
fjfaase wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.

> An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this w…

> This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust.

Have you ever changed a tire on Tesla because it was worn down? Where do you think the rubber in the old tire went when it was worn down? Emitted into the environment, that’s where.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#194

Post by kortilla »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #61
hnarn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gasoline cars with coal powered electricity plants makes a lot of sense, unless maybe the CO2 is captured and stored, but at that point you might as well go nuclear (which I am a proponent of, as the only realistic alternative at this point).

Internal combustion engines pollute the air where I'm living . Moving pollution away from residential areas is a worthwhile task in itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I live in a densely populated country. Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Also my country does not have any viable means to st…

>Also my country does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly.

I don’t think you realize how little there is to deal with. It could easily be exported to a competent country.

It’s shocking how people are willing to effectively endorse burning fossil fuels for base load to destroy the environment over the next 50 years because of something that might be a problem in a few thousand years.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#195

Post by lazyjones »

avar wrote: post #160
AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. This is utter nonsense. Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. You are confusing this with emissions during production. My point is about emissions at the location of a car's use. > The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. If this w…

> Electric vehicles have no direct emissions, including no direct emissions of fine dust. QUOTE Traffic related particles can be distinguished into: exhaust traffic related particles, which are emitted as a result of incomplete fuel combustion and lubricant volatilization during the combustion procedure, and nonexhaust traffic related particles, which are either generated from non-exhaust traffic related sources such…

> It is estimated that exhaust and non-exhaust sources contribute almost equally to total traffic-related PM10 emissions. However, as exhaust emissions control become stricter, relative contributions of non-exhaust sources to traffic related emissions will increasingly become more significant.

So if this "estimate" (i.e. conjecture) is on point, EV produce less than half of the emissions of an ICE car currently (EV have 0 exhaust emissions) and will continue to produce much less even when ICE are somewhat improved (and manufacturers stop defrauding customers). Let's not forget that EV also brake less than ICE cars.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#197

Post by kortilla »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #101
mxschumacher wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think gas plants will be turned off, especially given the low gas prices?

Because despite the low gas prices, solar and wind prices are trending down as efficiencies increase and as economies of scale improve the economics. Prices are already dipping below those prices for new bids. So, if you are planning a gas plant that needs to be operational for decades, the economic outlook is pretty grim. That's why lots of plans for new gas plans are getting shelved. Existing plants run quite econo…

Solar/wind doesn’t compete with gas because it cannot provide dependable base load.

Solar/wind + massive energy storage is what competes with gas. And in that category it’s not even close to competitive because batteries are still way too expensive.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#198

Post by lazyjones »

Tade0 wrote: post #111
hnarn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gasoline cars with coal powered electricity plants makes a lot of sense, unless maybe the CO2 is captured and stored, but at that point you might as well go nuclear (which I am a proponent of, as the only realistic alternative at this point).

Germany's grid is not powered solely by coal but a decent mix of sources with various carbon intensities. A typical EV in Germany has a carbon footprint of a vehicle burning anywhere in the range of 2-5l/100km(including manufacturing). EVs in Germany are consistently less carbon intensive than ICE cars - especially in the city.

The "average" EV in Germany uses cleaner electricity than the grid, because there are > 0 EV drivers who charge their cars with their own PV setup.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#199

Post by ramidarigaz »

free652 wrote: post #184
cj wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, price of gas is 2.5x higher in Norway than somewhere like the USA. If you're in the USA and fill your tank once a week, you probably spend ~$2000/yr in gas. And that's how much you'd save in gas if you went electric. In areas with higher fuel prices, the incentive is proportionally larger. (That's ignoring the cost of paying your electric bill, not sure if that changes the math much..)

Yea, so the cost of electricity is 25c/kWh (NYC). 3 miles per kWh or 0.08 per mile (not including charging efficiency). City: 20 miles per gallon ($2.75/gal) or 0.13 per mile Highway: 30mpg or 0.09c. Hybrid: 40mpg or 0.07c. Tesla is too expensive for a very little benefit, smaller EVs have tiny range. Hybrids would be cheaper than a Tesla.

I had no idea electricity was so expensive in NYC. Also, I think 3 miles per kWh is a bit pessimistic. Lifetime average for my Model 3 is 260 Wh/mi, which works out to 3.8 mi/kWh. Given Colorado's ~$0.11/kWh, it all works out to just under $0.03/mi which looks a lot more favorable against the other options. It's still a heckin' expensive car though.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#200

Post by lazyjones »

amelius wrote: post #196

At what point will it become a safety issue if X% of cars in a multi-story garage are electric, considering both the fire-safety of batteries and their weight?

Never, because ICE cars are also fire hazards and all garages must be designed to accommodate that.
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