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Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

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Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#101

Post by jillesvangurp »

mxschumacher wrote: post #94
jillesvangurp wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is not building new coal plants so they are not going to burn more coal because of EVs. EVs indeed create more demand for electricity, which is met by deploying more clean energy. Coal plants stopped being a good option economically decades ago and we are now getting to the point where keeping the existing plants going is also no longer economical. Gas plants are following pretty soon as well.

why do you think gas plants will be turned off, especially given the low gas prices?

Because despite the low gas prices, solar and wind prices are trending down as efficiencies increase and as economies of scale improve the economics. Prices are already dipping below those prices for new bids.

So, if you are planning a gas plant that needs to be operational for decades, the economic outlook is pretty grim. That's why lots of plans for new gas plans are getting shelved.

Existing plants run quite economically. But when cheaper clean energy becomes available at scale, it becomes more expensive to operate them. Selling expensive energy during low demand is not going to be an option because cheaper energy will be preferred. Spinning plants up during peak demand takes time and battery + solar is already cheaper and faster for that as well. A gas plant that isn't running part of the time is going to be more expensive. That's why a lot of them will be taken out long before their planned end of life.

Currently people are shutting down the most expensive plants first (nuclear & coal) but once that is gone, gas will be next.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#102

Post by reitzensteinm »

_ph_ wrote: post #93
_ph_ wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 40% coal provided electricity, electric cars are already way less poluting than combustion engines. Actually even just being powered by an efficient diesel generator would put them on a roughly equal level. So only 40% coal is already a benefit. But of course, we should get rid of our coal plants as quickly as possible. That is the one rather low hanging fruit in reducing the carbon footprint. And I think the 2038…

For all the downvoters: powered by the average German grid, a Tesla emits about 75g CO2/100km. Please show me any combustion engined vehicle that comes even close to those numbers. Of course the "emissions" of the electric cars can only get better from there.

When you add load to a grid that's in the process of decarbonizing, you need to look at the marginal impact. Taking the average energy mix is bad math, because you're delaying the shutdown of the dirtiest sources.

This can get more complicated if you have excess renewable energy generation at times, where the use is essentially free. Not to mention demand dispatch to smooth intermittent renewables.

I'm a big EV fan, but it's important to get the math right, because overstating the impact does disservice to other options. Especially in Germany. When I lived in Berlin for two years, not in the loop, I just used public transport. Most of my friends rode to work.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#103

Post by playing_colours »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #63
tomp wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't trust Germany's management to make any rational decisions about energy. They've been shutting down nuclear power plants for the past few years... What are they going to do in 2038, spends the nights in cold and darkness when the sun isn't shining, or be Putin's puppets dependent on Russian gas?

Germany is a very densely populated country (go take a look at map). Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Germany also does not have any viable means to store nuclear waste responsibly. Currently, nuclear does not look like the sane option for Germany.

We do not have unquestionable alternatives to nuclear in Germany for generating electricity to power an industrial country on a stable rate. The demand for power will additionally grow with adoption of electric cars. For densely populated industrial country in Germany’s climate zone using renewables can be disasterous - we already pay too much for electricity, wind and solar panels are space-inefficient, we does not seem to be able to build grid infrastructure to efficiently support them.

We know and can build secure nuclear power plants - we made great progress there. They will help Germany to shut coal plants faster and buy time to research and develop alternatives, maybe we will get to fusion power plants in our lifetime.

Also, there is a problem that there are no serious healthy discussions about it now in Germany: loud voices prevail, the moderate people are afraid to share different opinions; a single large party in conservative opposition, AfD, does deny human impact on the climate change, so they cannot be a moderate voice of sanity.

May it be that investing in renewables is not a good focus for Germany now, are there better areas that we should focus on to save the planet?

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#104

Post by tyfon »

mogadsheu wrote: post #4

>The Dutch numbers are inflated by lavish incentives. In the next fiscal year, the incentives in the UK will be even more lavish. Norway was an early adopter of large subsidies/driving perks for EVs. It looks like other countries are following suit. This obviously bodes well for Tesla—-I wonder if anybody has insight about what this could mean for Chinese EVs if they make it to Europe.

There are basically no subsidies for EVs in Norway, only tax relief. The government is not paying anyone to use EVs.

Some municipals have free public charging stations but that's up to the locals to decide.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#105

Post by nemoniac »

tcmb wrote: post #18

I live in an apartment complex in Berlin. We have a parking garage that belongs to the complex. Unfortunately the housing company does not allow installation of a wallbox in the garage, even if I paid for it myself. The housing company is owned by the municipality. Large-scale adoption of electric cars is unrealistic when the majority of people have nowhere to charge it.

As a counterpoint, in Amsterdam the municipality has hundreds of charging stations all around the city.

https://www.amsterdam.nl/en/traffic-transport/map-charging-s...

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#106

Post by fjfaase »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #61
hnarn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gasoline cars with coal powered electricity plants makes a lot of sense, unless maybe the CO2 is captured and stored, but at that point you might as well go nuclear (which I am a proponent of, as the only realistic alternative at this point).

Internal combustion engines pollute the air where I'm living . Moving pollution away from residential areas is a worthwhile task in itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I live in a densely populated country. Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Also my country does not have any viable means to st…

An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine. Thus in that respect they are as poluting. The CO2 and NOx combustion engines produces are not that dangerous to our health. Soot, mainly produced by heavy diesel engines, is also a dangerous form of polution, but most trucks should have filters for those by now.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#107

Post by ratsbane »

AnonymousPlanet wrote: post #61
hnarn wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may well be so, but my conviction is that we need to substantially reduce carbon emissions across the board, and if that's true I don't think replacing gasoline cars with coal powered electricity plants makes a lot of sense, unless maybe the CO2 is captured and stored, but at that point you might as well go nuclear (which I am a proponent of, as the only realistic alternative at this point).

Internal combustion engines pollute the air where I'm living . Moving pollution away from residential areas is a worthwhile task in itself. That makes a lot of sense to me. I live in a densely populated country. Even a relatively minor accident at a nuclear facility would trigger a huge evacuation (I've seen the disaster control plans), causing major economic harm. Also my country does not have any viable means to st…

fjfaase, your statement "An electrical car produces almost as much fine dust particles as an internal combustion engine" is very surprising and not at all what I would expect.

Can you cite any sources for that or explain it a bit more?

Aside from particulate matter in exhaust, regenerative braking doesn't produce dust like friction braking does, thus I'd expect electric cars to produce much less dust than ICE vehicles.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#108

Post by Faark »

ralusek wrote: post #45
hnarn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, around 40% of the electricity in Germany was generated from coal in 2018, but in january 2019, a group of federal and state leaders as well as industry representatives, environmentalists, and scientists made an agreement to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038.[1] Just as in many other parts of the world, expanding electrical consumption through electric vehicles does not make sense if we also…

Isn't running an internal combustion engine in a car still substantially less efficient than the power plant necessary to charge it, regardless of the fuel?

Not just that, ICE cars emit their shitty exhaust right where lots of people live. Things are generally more complex than breaking it down to a single CO2 number make it appear, and I'm a bit uneasy that recent trend.

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#109

Post by Vesuvium »

ralusek wrote: post #45
hnarn wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, around 40% of the electricity in Germany was generated from coal in 2018, but in january 2019, a group of federal and state leaders as well as industry representatives, environmentalists, and scientists made an agreement to close all 84 coal plants in the country by 2038.[1] Just as in many other parts of the world, expanding electrical consumption through electric vehicles does not make sense if we also…

Isn't running an internal combustion engine in a car still substantially less efficient than the power plant necessary to charge it, regardless of the fuel?

About 30% less efficient

Re: Tesla Model 3 represented over 15% of September new car sales in The Netherlands

#110

Post by masklinn »

tyfon wrote: post #98
masklinn wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's having a parking garage at all. Electrified street parking is nigh on non-existent.

Oh I wouldn't say it's non-existent [1]. There is also plenty of street charging stations in Oslo, I have many friends there without a garage that has electric cars. It's just a matter of putting up the infrastructure. It's a policy issue not a practical one. [1] https://www.electrive.com/2019/08/18/on-street-chargers-to-p...

> Oh I wouldn't say it's non-existent [1].

One charging point — or even a thousand — across a country with >30 million cars does qualify as nigh on non existent.

> It's just a matter of putting up the infrastructure. It's a policy issue not a practical one.

It's both. When the charging infrastructure is not in place, it's impractical for many people to buy an EV.

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