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The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

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Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#191

Post by sliverstorm »

robg wrote: post #80
ErrantX wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brought the passes on herself? Yep, she did. But that is not a blame on the victim. If you wander round flirting with people they are going to make passes at you. She admits this, and seems fine with it. There is nothing wrong with wandering round being flirty, there is nothing wrong with guys taking that as a signal to make a pass at her. Feeling her up after being rejected definitely is wrong.

Depends on what you mean by a "pass". Asking a woman if you can kiss her may feel hard, but looking back on my single teenage years, that's a whole lot easier than "going for a kiss".

Asking a woman if you can kiss her may feel hard, but looking back on my single teenage years, that's a whole lot easier than "going for a kiss".

On the other hand, if you can pull off just going for it and she digs it, that makes you look really good.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#192

Post by sliverstorm »

kbatten wrote: post #167
TomOfTTB wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make a point that’s over looked here. As much as it’s PC to portray men and women as completely equal I think men who witness this behavior have a greater responsibility to step in. Our society has always defined “being a man” as taking on certain responsibilities and I think this is one of them. Further I think every father should teach his sons that they have a responsibility to be protective of women.…

I definitely disagree with this. I cannot see how women can be both things to be protected, and be taken as seriously as their male peers.

I take my little brothers seriously (well, that's not precisely true- one of them is only 14, so you can't always take him too seriously- but if you have brothers you probably know what I mean) and I've defended them in the past.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#193

Post by sliverstorm »

hugh3 wrote: post #126
Tichy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cracking a bottle over someones head could escalate (and land you in jail anyway).

I know I'm at the risk of taking an offhand turn of phrase too literally here, but just in case anyone is ever tempted to break a bottle over someone's head like they do in the movies: don't. Glass bottles are surprisingly strong, and breaking one over a slightly springy surface like someone's head requires a very forceful blow which could cause serious injuries. And that's before we get to the broken-glass-going-eve…

Breaking glass bottles over heads mostly happens in old westerns and that sort of thing. Is it possible glass bottles of the time were more fragile?

In other news, I love the image of a cordial lecture on good manners and being polite to women directed towards a guy in a headlock on the ground beneath me. Hopefully I'll have the guts to do it if needed.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#194

Post by VMG »

btilly wrote: post #122
VMG wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you explain this then? > When strippers were hired to mix with people at the Saturday night event everyone attended, that made everyone uncomfortable I suspect that there is some level of ignorance and even acceptance in the community

Yeah, that one was pretty egregious. I think that only a small minority of organizers would be that insensitive. Given the number of conferences and events there are, I don't think that that can be taken as typical. Most of the other incidents were something that can be explained by a relatively small number of creeps. In one of them there was clear evidence that said creep had done the same thing to multiple women.

Why was he still allowed to go to these events then? He should have been banned from attending after the first time.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#195

Post by mcantor »

angumagu wrote: post #186
nickolai wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed : had the presenter replaced the "bikini-clad girl" by a tough looking dark-haired muscular-type guy in boxer short holding an iphone, i wonder how many men would've found this offensive? Rethorical question : None. They would've found it funny. Had the conference room been full of women, would the guys still have found it funny? Answer : Yes. And what if the women started to comment on the guy's 'feat…

Your mirror-world example leaves one important factor out: context. That is, the larger social context is a world of unequal gendered power dynamics. I think your thought experiment is accurate in its depiction of what that flipped situation would look like, but you are implying the difference is in sensitivity or disposition. I think the difference is actually that men can laugh at that stuff because a) it's ironic…

I wish I could take every upvote I've ever given to someone else on Hacker News, and put them all on this post instead. But, I can only upvote it once. So it'll have to do for now.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#196

Post by sliverstorm »

masterponomo wrote: post #136
blasdel wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that the way the typical renfaire-attending dork interprets 'chivalry' is obnoxious in its own right

True. The written no-harassment policy should also address such things as hand-kissing of maidens after rescuing them.

What a shame. It could've be good for a laugh to set everyone at ease again!

Though, you'd have to be pretty smooth to pull that off.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#197

Post by follower »

orangecat wrote: post #106
follower wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. FWIW some people would consider that unwelcoming/harassing--I think the term is "othering". i.e. what's treated as important is not the person or their skill but their gender. And, yes, it can be annoying for guy in a "traditionally female" domain as well.

And this is where harder-core feminism can devolve into "everything men do is wrong". Notice that a woman is a woman and you're patronizing/harassing/"othering". Treat her as one of the guys and you're being deliberately exclusive and maintaining a boys club.

What you present is a false dichotomy.

Have you considered treating people as people?

See someone (whatever the gender) at a tech conference? Talk to them about tech. Simple.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#198

Post by follower »

unwind wrote: post #63
follower wrote: post #3

While I'm pleased to see this article on HN, is it appropriate to use a "subscriber link" in a public forum like HN?

Yes, that is exactly the purpose of LWN's subscriber links. It lets subscribers share content with non-subscribers in a "controlled" manner, which I guess means LWN can track usage and so on. I think it's awesome; thanks for sharing, rythie. See their FAQ: http://lwn.net/op/FAQ.lwn#slinks .

I guess I should have RTFF. :)

"Where is it appropriate to post a subscriber link? Almost anywhere. Private mail, messages to project mailing lists, and weblog entries are all appropriate. As long as people do not use subscriber links as a way to defeat our attempts to gain subscribers, we are happy to see them shared."

Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#199

Post by follower »

ibejoeb wrote: post #166
stevenbedrick wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. That sort of slide (and its associated comment) is absolutely sexual harassment, in that it automatically sexualizes what is supposed to be a professional environment. Given the technology world's long and unpleasant track record of sexist behavior towards women (as well as towards... well, pretty much anybody who isn't, cisgendered, heterosexual, and male), I personally can think of very few ways that se…

We just need to recognize the difference between harassment and offensive . I was not there, and I do not know if it was done in the spirit of things--had the conference been in Miami in August, bathing suit clad models wouldn't be terribly out of context--but if pressed to decide whether the presenter acted criminally or in bad taste, I'll err on the bad taste side. Having said that, and having been to many conferen…

> difference between harassment and offensive

I've read somewhere that using the words "offensive" or "offended by" puts the emphasis on the person who has expressed concern about the situation. It focuses on the negative: "what can we do to be less offensive?".

The article I read suggested using terms like "unwelcoming" or "exclusive" instead--as it puts the focus on the community. This allows us to focus on the positive: "what can we do to become more welcoming?".

So rather than considering whether this is a question of harrassment or offensiveness I find it useful to think of actions being "welcoming" or "unwelcoming" toward members of our community.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#200

Post by Benjo »

Tichy wrote: post #22
cturner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you agree with the points, but put your tiredness down to the complaints of the affected women. Of the things on offer, that's an odd thing to put your frustration down to. I think it would be better to be tired of the guys who act like jerks and ruin things for everyone else.

I wonder how many guys are being enlightened by reading this thread on HN right now. My guess would be zero.

Marginal effects count. We don't have to cause an epiphany; making everyone slightly more aware of the problem is useful too.
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