The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed] • Hacker News Board

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#121

Post by khafra » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 5:56 PM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

An unwanted flirtation is not sexual harassment, but repeated advances after the target of the advances has said "no" are sexual harassment.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#122

Post by btilly » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:01 PM UTC

VMG wrote: post #57

btilly wrote: post #5

Ah, yes. I remember once casually joking at a get together, Someone needs to tell ESR that he's not God's gift to women. When everyone was done laughing, it turned out that both women present at the table had actually been propositioned by ESR. (And had turned him down.) A small minority of men cause the vast majority of the problem. Unfortunately it doesn't take many to create a real problem.

But how do you explain this then? > When strippers were hired to mix with people at the Saturday night event everyone attended, that made everyone uncomfortable I suspect that there is some level of ignorance and even acceptance in the community

Yeah, that one was pretty egregious.

I think that only a small minority of organizers would be that insensitive. Given the number of conferences and events there are, I don't think that that can be taken as typical.

Most of the other incidents were something that can be explained by a relatively small number of creeps. In one of them there was clear evidence that said creep had done the same thing to multiple women.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#123

Post by aneth » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:03 PM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

I've written a number of comments about articles about sexism in tech and elsewhere that have been duly down voted. I find many such articles to be self-absorbed prudish feminism that turn innocuous events into harassment. However this is the first article to focus largely on real harassment and I generally agree with your sentiment.

I don't think conferences are a place to have an entirely dry professional existence, but women should feel comfortable that they can interact with men without persistent come-ons. As immature as it may be, men make sexual jokes with men that they don't mean - the "how much for a #%^¥" comment in this article may have been such a comment directed toward a women in an attempt to relate, or it may have been sexist harassment. It's hard to say which from the article. Either way it's immature and reflects badly on the speaker but in only one instance is it real harassment.

I suggest women give these men, many of whom are unsure how to relate to women, the benefit of the doubt that they are joking or just naive, possible even give them some straightforward advice. If someone is persistent, rude, physically assaulting, or otherwise clearly violating you, I think it's your responsibility to report this as well as not to blame the behavior on the entire conference.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#124

Post by calebgilbert » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:10 PM UTC

I guess the 180-degree alternative to "women being harrassed" is the the Drupal community, in which a small, but very vocal, women run around and use 'women being harrassed' as a sledgehammer to intimidate and enforce their own standards of values/behavior on anyone and everyone.

No one seems to mourn that kind of harassment. Until they do, I remain suspect when I read titles like this. Based on experience I believe that as often as not someone just needs to call the wahmbulance and/or quit using their gender as a weapon of control.

I will add as a side note, and I have no idea if it pertains to this particular article or not, but many (even most) of the women I have seen complaining about 'being harassed' in the Drupal community are openly lesbian. I could care less about someone's personal sexual choices in the bedroom, but it does raise more questions about what is going on with many of these 'harassment' complaints, at least in my mind. There is something dishonest to me about those who have sworn their life to not-include men, also simultaneously want to tell all the men exactly how they are allowed to act/speak/think.

UPDATE: For the record I do acknowledge the very real possibly/problem of actual harassment. I do not wish my comments to diminish the seriousness of those cases. Just sharing my experience of seeing 'harassment' complaints being weaponized, and calling for some balance/sanity.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#125

Post by acangiano » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:12 PM UTC

khafra wrote: post #121

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

An unwanted flirtation is not sexual harassment, but repeated advances after the target of the advances has said "no" are sexual harassment.

Absolutely, but it's important to understand that a guy hitting on you is not sexual harassment. When you have made it clear that you are not interested, the guy needs to leave you alone though, or it can easily become harassment.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#126

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:12 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #55

JonnieCache wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not advocating breaking things over peoples heads. I'm saying that I'm shocked that the heads of said upskirt photographers havent been used to break anything yet. It shows a level of restraint that is certainly morally commendable, whether it has benefitted the community long term I am not so sure. > What is the point of getting into a potentially life-threatening situation just to teach a jerk a lesson? What is…

Cracking a bottle over someones head could escalate (and land you in jail anyway).

I know I'm at the risk of taking an offhand turn of phrase too literally here, but just in case anyone is ever tempted to break a bottle over someone's head like they do in the movies: don't. Glass bottles are surprisingly strong, and breaking one over a slightly springy surface like someone's head requires a very forceful blow which could cause serious injuries. And that's before we get to the broken-glass-going-everywhere problem.

If you do ever need to deal appropriately with some pervert taking upskirt photos, I recommend putting him in a headlock and getting a couple of other guys to help you wrestle him to the ground, where they can hold him down while you lecture him on the subject of good manners and appropriate behaviour.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#127

Post by blasdel » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:14 PM UTC

masterponomo wrote: post #25

I'm sure this will sound sexist as well, but the chivalrous guys far outnumber the jerks. If someone crosses the line, by all means call the cops but also consider making an immediate and loud protest, and you might get help from an ad hoc group of temporary big (or little) brothers. A black eye and split lip might be the quickest way to teach some of these guys the right way to act.

Except that the way the typical renfaire-attending dork interprets 'chivalry' is obnoxious in its own right

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#128

Post by hugh3 » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:16 PM UTC

gacba wrote: post #84

theophani wrote: post #18

I've [only] been to three tech conferences. The only "sexism" I observed was excessive delight: "Oh wow, a woman!" which I hardly consider harassing. No one meant disrespect; rather the opposite. Possibly offensive is the notion that it would be a surprise to find me there at all. I might say something similar to a man at a needlepoint conference. Yes, I got sexual attention, but only in a social context, and nothing…

The fact you personally didn't receive any unwanted advances is not proof that they never happen.

No, however the fact that she didn't is a useful data point in itself. It puts some sort of upper bound on the extent of the problem.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#129

Post by aneth » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:16 PM UTC

rue wrote: post #110

guylhem wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

here a copy of an email I sent after reading that article. It's not only guys hitting girl, it can take may other forms. The problem is, being mostly outcasts, we lean to tolerate untolerable behaviour. -- Following an HN link, I read your article today on LWN http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/417952/bf6a55b67170ff0e/ and it rang a bell. There's an event I remember from a conference in LSM around 2002 IIRC in Bordeaux, F…

You realise that your actions, as described, can be construed as rather creepy and that maybe you should have apologised?

Sounds like pretty normal messing around in a bar to me.

Re: The dark side of open source conferences [about women being harassed]

#130

Post by acangiano » Fri, Dec 03, 2010, 6:22 PM UTC

idm wrote: post #108

acangiano wrote: post #94

A few thoughts: * This is one of the most factual, well written articles that I've encountered on the subject. * It's just sad to see socially awkward people manifest their sexual frustration in this manner. And it's even sadder to see that the few women we have in our profession feel threatened at conferences. The overwhelming majority of good people need to intervene to interrupt any form of harassment towards anyo…

"It may not be PC to say this, but it's important to distinguish unpleasant, but fundamentally innocuos flirting from awkward people, from bona fide sexual harassment like groping or inappropriate touching." Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment. Here's my example from the last 2 years. I'm blanking on the conference now, but the…

> Sexual harassment includes the comments like the "how much for a sexual favor?" example. That constitutes bona fide harassment.

I wasn't implying otherwise. Sexual remarks like the ones you describe are certainly uncalled for and a form of sexual harassment.

What I meant is that it's important to draw the line between "awkward flirting" and harassment/assault of a sexual nature, so that severe and proper corrective actions can be taken when actual episodes of harassment or assault happen, and so that they cannot be easily dismissed.

(I wasn't going for the distinction between harassment and assault in my comment, and I used the word harassment as an all-inclusive term for any form of sexual, inappropriate behavior).