CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia • Hacker News Board

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#191

Post by scott_s » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:41 PM UTC

gambiting wrote: post #131

mamon wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So producing shoes or coat's in women sizes is also "demeaning" towards women? I can't imagine why producing smaller pianos would be any different.

Because someone would say that it shows that a woman cannot play a proper piano like a man can - she has to be provided with a smaller(and therefore obviously inferior) one.

But it's important to keep in mind no one is saying that. It's dangerous to get wrapped up in what people might say because that relies on your imagination, not reality.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#192

Post by sprash » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:43 PM UTC

Mugwort wrote: post #177

I'll just say this. Anyone who discourages anybody from even TRYING to learn or pursue a career in science is a bully and a jerk. That's the way the world is going and being tech savvy only makes the world a better place. That said our schools and workplaces should still be based on MERIT. I don't care where the science comes from so long as it's good science. If it just so happens to be more men are doing science th…

Why can't we just invent a virus that turns everyone into hermaphroditic futanarias. If there's only 1 gender, that'll end gender discrimination.

On a serious note: The identity politics culture, in particular third wave feminism, was a psyop instigated by the CIA (for further information look up e.g. Gloria Steinem) in order to exactly prevent organizations to give people power/reward based on MERIT. This leads to a failing and dysfunctional power structures and subsequently to the failure of the attacked organizations.

Why High-Energy-Physics is under attack and who would be the attacker is totally unclear to me. The result however will be a inefficient non functioning institution doomed to fail. If CERN were to be publicly traded I would sell now!

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#193

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

rosser wrote: post #179

fromthestart wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the possibility that this higher variance really does explain differences in representation among sexes across various top talent industries. Academic society is in a weird place where this kind of bias is acceptable. Which is antithetical to science and I therefore understand Strumia's frustration.

Meanwhile people (though broadly, it appears, a different set of them) also appear to be unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the fact that it is meaningless to attempt to extrapolate from statistical phenomena to individual, or vice-versa. So, sure: stipulated. Male h. sapiens sapiens have statistically greater variability, across the population. That in no way whatsoever prevents a woman from being the bi…

You are correct that a set of people are unwilling to accept that, but it’s actually the same set. Those who bring up male variability pretty frequently take great pains to state, gratuitously, that it applies to populations in a general sense and not individuals. Damore called this out as well, but the mob rewrote his words for him to omit anything like that.

Most men advancing this argument have no problem whatsoever with the idea that there can be women who are better than they are. For some reason it’s impossible to utter words like (downvoted, wtf? See...) GP did without a lot of people putting extra words in your mouth and assuming you’re using population generalizations as a thinly veiled charade to attack individuals.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#194

Post by cm2187 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:47 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #28

You can't start neutral discussion with weak evidence, strong conclusion and open hostility. Strumia could have just presented his findings neutrally, without already made up his mind and having a clearly visible agenda and hostility. There is a pattern that is repeating: 1. Scientist has a political opinion on difficult politically volatile issue that is outside his field. 2. Scientist finds some supporting evidence…

Yes and no. As others pointed, Larry Summers wasn't provocative and suffered a similar backlash. And when you have a strong political pressure on a topic, it is logical that the only people who will speak up will tend to be the more provocative, anti-establishment outliers.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#195

Post by miemo » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:48 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #79

sonnyblarney wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The BBC's characterization I think is unfair, I suggest HN'ers actually read the presentation. While controversial, I don't think it's poignantly offensive. I'm wary of researchers getting into flame wars and I guess CERN does have the right to avoid such things, at the same time, he seems to be making some points with a lot of data - the best thing someone concerned with opinions could do is actually debunk them ins…

It's a formal presentation at a CERN workshop that invokes "Cultural Marxism". CERN had to apologize for the presentation after the workshop. Of course they're pissed.

a formal presentation in a 'women in physics' workshop, not a physics workshop. you're implying it was entirely out of context

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#196

Post by DanBC » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:48 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #184

DanBC wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People complain about government-funded women's refuges not accepting male victims of domestic violence. I think those people are wrong, especially if there are male refuges available.

> I think those people are wrong, especially if there are male refuges available. Personally I think they are right, _especially_ if there are no male refuges available. Which according to my cursory glances seems to be the case, at least in London[0]. [0]: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/there-are-no-male-safe...

You've failed to show whether there are any government funded domestic violence shelters for women in London.

And reading your link it seems the government funding is clearly for both men and women:

> “Tackling domestic violence is a key priority in the Mayor’s Policing and Crime Plan. He has provided £2 million of funding for the Pan London Domestic Abuse Service – the biggest of its kind in London – which is open to men and women.

> “Through Survivors UK, the Mayor also supports male victims of rape and sexual abuse with funding to help them receive counselling through one-to-one support and advocacy support should they wish to report to the police and proceed through the criminal justice route.

Domestic violence shelters in the UK are almost entirely provided by charities.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#197

Post by scott_s » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:50 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #180

tptacek wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last September, Professor Strumia stated that “physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation" at a presentation at the Cern the workshop. He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. Did Larry Summers do anything as overt as…

If we are seeking truth, as we do in science, we must accept that there can never be anything wrong with attempting to analyze whether A outperforms B, no matter what A and B are . It doesn’t matter if it’s offensive or politically incorrect. So, what he did seems to be no more “overt” than attempting to analyze which thruster design is most efficient. If he’s wrong, the most appropriate and most effective rebuttal i…

> His analysis was quickly dismissed as being unscientific and incorrect by experts in the impact of research.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-47478537

Racists and misogynist have been using bad science to justify their views for centuries. (See, for example, phrenology.) Once identified as such, we are under no obligation to continue suffering such fools.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#198

Post by iguy » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:56 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #189

thaumasiotes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If male variance is higher, there are likely both benefits and downsides to it Yes, but the general concept is that the benefits and the downsides occur in different people. A single person doesn't illustrate "the benefits and the downsides" of greater variability any more than a single person can illustrate variability. WRT issues of pure sample size, you can see one of the standard supports for GMVH in the SAT To…

Would the drop out rate of men (assuming higher) provide an additional control? If low achieving men selected out of the data set before it was collected at the SAT level, there could be a long tail of underachieving men. This would certainly effect averaging, and if number of dropouts were greater than the 90th percentile, there could be some selection/survivor bias in play on how males appear as a group.

From some quick googling, it sounds like less than half of high-school students take the SAT. In which case the bottom end of the scores will probably tell you nothing about the population.

"3.8 million students took the PSAT -- the practice version of the SATs ... 1.7 million students from the class of 2015 took the SAT"

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#199

Post by tptacek » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 12:00 AM UTC

miemo wrote: post #195

tptacek wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a formal presentation at a CERN workshop that invokes "Cultural Marxism". CERN had to apologize for the presentation after the workshop. Of course they're pissed.

a formal presentation in a 'women in physics' workshop, not a physics workshop. you're implying it was entirely out of context

A contrarian presentation about the lack of discrimination or progress towards fairness in physics? Sure. An insult-studded rant about "cultural marxism"? Not so much.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#200

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sun, Mar 10, 2019, 12:00 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #102

ekiru wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Cultural Marxism' is an overtly antisemitic conspiracy theory claiming a devious plot by certain Jewish academics a plot to subvert "western civilization" and attributing their influence as the cause of myriad social and political stances/events/developments that the advocates of this conspiracy theory disapprove of.

Even if you don't believe this (I think Jordan Peterson, who is fond of it, is a charlatan but not at all an anti-Semite), the term obviously occludes more than it clarifies, and was deliberately coined as a powerful negative emotional appeal; the choice to include it in a CERN physics workshop presentation is telling.

How can someone possibly call Jordan Peterson a charlatan? Are we redefining that word now too? Also, describing something as “telling” is a pretty strong signal that one lacks any substantive rebuttals but cannot resist throwing shade. It’s cheap.