CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia • Hacker News Board

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#21

Post by 0815test » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:37 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #10

Lying about the contents of your talk so you can insult members of a selection comitte that didn’t pick you is not a good way to get a contract renewed, who would have known? Strumia must have really let his victory of the 750 GeV iron throne* dictate his sense of entitlement. *: http://resonaances.blogspot.com/2016/06/game-of-thrones-750-...

Yeah, it's important to be aware of this when thinking about Strumia's case. The guy said a whole lot more than "women are less able at cutting-edge physics than men", and much of what was being said was, if not outright BS, certainly willfully courting controversy in a highly unprofessional way, and not something that even people who are aware of possible gender differences in ability would support.

To make a comparison that many people here will understand, Strubia's talk is a lot like what the media misrepresented James Damore as saying, and nothing like what James Damore actually said.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#22

Post by educationdata » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

chki wrote: post #7

He claims that he could proof his assumptions if he were to be published in a journal but I think it would be very strange if somebody published his "research". He is not a sociologist and this is clearly not his area of expertise.

This is not the point. The point is that: if your study reach conclusion A, and someone finds flaw in your research method (this will certainly happen) -> you are a *ist. On the contrary, if your study reach conclusion of opposite of A, and someone finds flaw in your research method -> this is fine because no research is perfect.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#23

Post by SiempreViernes » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:38 PM UTC

harias wrote: post #12

chki wrote: post #7

He claims that he could proof his assumptions if he were to be published in a journal but I think it would be very strange if somebody published his "research". He is not a sociologist and this is clearly not his area of expertise.

Peer-review will help with that. I strongly support amateurs publishing if they have something real to contribute. Gate-keeping based on degrees is bad.

The argument you object to is exactly that peer review will not accept it because it is trash research.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#24

Post by geofft » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #13

And the fact is his statements were all backed up by real data, one would think Physicists could easily debunk them if they were bogus. Instead his detractors provided nothing but wishful thinking platitudes. Ideology over science, feelings over truth, shrieking, hysterical pronouncements over rational argument, welcome to the age of bullshit. Good luck with your next Physics breakthrough.

I don't follow - the article says that other scientists did debunk his claims. Did they not?

There is a lengthy scientific rebuttal at https://www.particlesforjustice.org linked in the article. The fact that it also contains a moral rebuttal does not detract from the scientific one.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#25

Post by kartan » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

zarkov99 wrote: post #13

And the fact is his statements were all backed up by real data, one would think Physicists could easily debunk them if they were bogus. Instead his detractors provided nothing but wishful thinking platitudes. Ideology over science, feelings over truth, shrieking, hysterical pronouncements over rational argument, welcome to the age of bullshit. Good luck with your next Physics breakthrough.

> one would think Physicists could easily debunk them if they were bogus

Done: "Physicist Sabine Hossenfelder cited papers addressing some of Strumia's conclusions and provided an alternative analysis, arguing that after accounting for disproportionately higher rates of women leaving the field the sex differences Strumia claims to have found become negligible."

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#26

Post by samcday » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

fallingfrog wrote: post #8

Haha I totally misread that as “sexiest” scientist

That would certainly have made for a much more interesting article!

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#27

Post by merpnderp » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

digdigdag wrote: post #14

ktjfi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you want to say something as controversial as that, and you decide to wait until more people say it first, you may have to wait a lifetime. (Once again, I haven't looked at the data, so I don't necessarily agree with what he said.)

His evidence is based on predetermined assumptions. He does not even have the scientific background to even tackle this area of study. It's not even that he said something controversial. He made crude errors in his research that would have made a respectable sociologist laugh him out the door.

What makes you claim his research has been reviewed? The article makes it sound like it was never peer reviewed and the people debunking it are doing so merely from his claims, not his methods and data.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#28

Post by nabla9 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

You can't start neutral discussion with weak evidence, strong conclusion and open hostility. Strumia could have just presented his findings neutrally, without already made up his mind and having a clearly visible agenda and hostility.

There is a pattern that is repeating:

1. Scientist has a political opinion on difficult politically volatile issue that is outside his field.

2. Scientist finds some supporting evidence.

3. Scientist comes out with agenda, evidence and overly confident conclusion.

4. Backlash

5. Scientist claims that he is discriminated. He thinks that just because he had some hard data, his presentation was just cold neutral science.

6. Others find easily some evidence that explains his theories away (Women leaving the field in disproportionately higher rates in this case).

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#29

Post by Udik » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:40 PM UTC

SiempreViernes wrote: post #19

Udik wrote: post #11

To me, the point in Strumia's case is that it doesn't matter whether his conclusions, or data, are sound or bonkers: the fact is that bad scientific research eventually condemns you to irrelevance, not to political outrage and disciplinary measures. The latter should be reserved to those who knowingly falsify data, plagiarise other people's work, etc.

Uh, you do know his actual actions was to misrepresent the contents of his talk, and spend time of it insulting members of a selection comitte that didn’t hire him? The fact is that he thinks open harrasment of people that didn’t judged him less suitable for a position is ok, which in itself is reason to keep him away from any position of imprtance.

The personal attack (or piece of personal anecdata) in the presentation was certainly condemnable and should have been left out- but let's not pretend the problem wasn't the content of the whole presentation, personal attack or not.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#30

Post by scottlocklin » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 2:41 PM UTC

digdigdag wrote: post #14

ktjfi wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you want to say something as controversial as that, and you decide to wait until more people say it first, you may have to wait a lifetime. (Once again, I haven't looked at the data, so I don't necessarily agree with what he said.)

His evidence is based on predetermined assumptions. He does not even have the scientific background to even tackle this area of study. It's not even that he said something controversial. He made crude errors in his research that would have made a respectable sociologist laugh him out the door.

Citations needed: the subject requires basic statistics to make assertions on. Pretty sure he was qualified to do so.

Also pretty sure psychometric researchers say exactly what Strumia said as any fool with google or wikipedia could determine. His only crime is having the temerity to stand up to imbeciles who insist on conspiracy theories to explain the comparative lack of female achievement in physics.