CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia • Hacker News Board

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#171

Post by Udik » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:09 PM UTC

PostOnce wrote: post #128

I went into this leaning towards "they probably are mistreating the guy", but nope, dude's... wrong, manipulative, a liar to further his own goals? The guy quotes the Istanbul Convention, article 4, as being "Discriminations against men 'shall not be considered discrimination'" https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/01A6/production/... But what it actually says is "Special measures that are necessary to prevent…

Why would measures meant to protect somebody from violence ever be considered discriminatory in the first place?

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#172

Post by cat199 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:12 PM UTC

jancsika wrote: post #162

jmole wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate in representation at the academic level, but are regularly outcompeted by men at the professional level. Piano playing. It all comes down to the shape of the instrument, and hand-span, which is unquestionably (and uncontroversially) larger in men than in women…

That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists). If you're going to make such a drastic change to the piano, at least cut the keyboard into two halves at middle c, then invert both halves. Now when the right hand starts at what used to be middle c and plays a chromatic scale upward, it's going from high pitches to low pitches. E.g., middle c is now…

> That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists).

taking something built using relatively coarse tolerances by today's standards and scaling it down by 1/8" is a 'enormous waste'?

if this is the case, human manufacturing technology is in serious trouble.

i don't think anyone is arguing to simply toss out the existing pianos, but to standardize on the smaller one and gradually replace them as time goes on..

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#173

Post by travisoneill1 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:13 PM UTC

OldFatCactus wrote: post #119

lgleason wrote: post #115

I wonder what would have happened if he had done a presentation in favor of the current favored political/pseudo religious orthodoxy with bad/inaccurate poorly done data. We will never know but, I'll bet you not much would have been said about it. I'm not in the field, but from everything I've read the rest of his work is some of the top in the field. So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work,…

Lol Firstly, the guy isn't qualified to make such a sweeping statement about the opposite sex. So before we even step into the problems with why it's a dumb idea to say such things, lets just make it clear that he's a physicist and not an anthropologist, biologist, or sociologist. We definitely care about his moral character, but it's also just flat out incredibly naive to discredit women in his field when they've be…

Would he be qualified to state that men and women are equally skilled at physics? Surely you would need the same credentials to determine that.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#174

Post by travisoneill1 » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #107

travisoneill1 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about patent clerks publishing in physics journals? Should they allow that?

If you are referring to Einstein, he had a degree in math and physics and took the patent clerk jobs to make ends meet because he couldn't find a math or physics teaching job.

Guess that's a bad example then, but I am still against using degrees as a credential requirement for basically anything.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#175

Post by thucydidesofusa » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:14 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #171

PostOnce wrote: post #128

I went into this leaning towards "they probably are mistreating the guy", but nope, dude's... wrong, manipulative, a liar to further his own goals? The guy quotes the Istanbul Convention, article 4, as being "Discriminations against men 'shall not be considered discrimination'" https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/01A6/production/... But what it actually says is "Special measures that are necessary to prevent…

Why would measures meant to protect somebody from violence ever be considered discriminatory in the first place?

Go read the indictment of the American justice system. Locking up violent people is racist because comparatively more blacks and hispanics are violent.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#176

Post by microcolonel » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #171

PostOnce wrote: post #128

I went into this leaning towards "they probably are mistreating the guy", but nope, dude's... wrong, manipulative, a liar to further his own goals? The guy quotes the Istanbul Convention, article 4, as being "Discriminations against men 'shall not be considered discrimination'" https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/01A6/production/... But what it actually says is "Special measures that are necessary to prevent…

Why would measures meant to protect somebody from violence ever be considered discriminatory in the first place?

The convention says this because the intent is to introduce measures which are clearly discriminatory (in the way they describe), but nominally intended to prevent violence against women in particular. Of course, a major error on their part is to limit it based on sex, which (regardless of your take on the expediency or righteousness of the distinction) is inherently discriminatory.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#177

Post by Mugwort » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:16 PM UTC

I'll just say this. Anyone who discourages anybody from even TRYING to learn or pursue a career in science is a bully and a jerk. That's the way the world is going and being tech savvy only makes the world a better place. That said our schools and workplaces should still be based on MERIT. I don't care where the science comes from so long as it's good science. If it just so happens to be more men are doing science than women, then we should make sure it's not because somebody is being shut out. Everyone get's to try and I even mean slow learners who are men and maybe even white. I say this because we NEED science and technological know-how going forward. If someone is so inclined educate them, give them a job. Yes we need more women in science, because we need more people in science, badly. It would be a pity if someday we achieve some quota that we're satisfied with and leave it at that. The world demands more people competent in science than can every fill the need, especially going forward. I personally DO NOT CARE wha the sex of the scientist who did XYZ happens to be. If fewer women get into the sciences or lean towards studying biology or something else, I accept that on one condition, that the DOOR is OPEN for EVERYONE. The country with the most technologically capable citizens is probably the one that's going to lead the world. Science education should be given out liberally and not rationed for an elite few. I personally do not care how the final stats and quotas look. Did every woman sincerely interested in a science career have the support and means necessary to pursue her goals? The answer to the question should be a resounding YES. The next thing is that I don't like sexist people but why make an example out of this guy and fire him? It doesn't solve anything. He didn't harass or grope someone. Go ahead and trash his ideas, discredit him, etc. whatever but leave his job alone. It's savage to fire people just because they have opinions you do like.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#178

Post by DanBC » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:17 PM UTC

Udik wrote: post #171

PostOnce wrote: post #128

I went into this leaning towards "they probably are mistreating the guy", but nope, dude's... wrong, manipulative, a liar to further his own goals? The guy quotes the Istanbul Convention, article 4, as being "Discriminations against men 'shall not be considered discrimination'" https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/01A6/production/... But what it actually says is "Special measures that are necessary to prevent…

Why would measures meant to protect somebody from violence ever be considered discriminatory in the first place?

People complain about government-funded women's refuges not accepting male victims of domestic violence.

I think those people are wrong, especially if there are male refuges available.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#179

Post by rosser » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

fromthestart wrote: post #146

pygy_ wrote: post #113

There's no doubt Strumia did a dumb, and while he may kind of have a point regarding the variability hypothesis, there's actually more to it. It comes down to chromosomes. XY individuals have a single X chromosome while XX individuals have two (duh). The X and Y chromosomes have a small section that pairs one another (the pseudo-homologous region), but most of their chromatin is different. The Y is mostly made of gen…

People are unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the possibility that this higher variance really does explain differences in representation among sexes across various top talent industries. Academic society is in a weird place where this kind of bias is acceptable. Which is antithetical to science and I therefore understand Strumia's frustration.

Meanwhile people (though broadly, it appears, a different set of them) also appear to be unwilling, to the point of delusion, to accept the fact that it is meaningless to attempt to extrapolate from statistical phenomena to individual, or vice-versa.

So, sure: stipulated. Male h. sapiens sapiens have statistically greater variability, across the population. That in no way whatsoever prevents a woman from being the biggest or smartest, or a man the smallest or weakest, or either the best at one job, or the worst at another. Population trends are population trends. They do not meaningfully constrain individual expression.

Re: CERN cuts ties with 'sexist' scientist Alessandro Strumia

#180

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, Mar 09, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #76

bhouston wrote: post #6

I am reminded of Larry Summers, then the head of Harvard, who said something similar: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2005/jan/18/educationsge... I think that previously there was a distinct issue with not enough women going through the degree programs. If the degree programs are 80% men and 20% women, statistically the men will outperform the women in outlier achievements just because there will likely be more p…

Last September, Professor Strumia stated that “physics was invented and built by men, it's not by invitation" at a presentation at the Cern the workshop. He also showed cartoons deriding women campaigning for equality in science and presented the results of an analysis that he claimed showed that work conducted by female physicists was not as good as their male counterparts. Did Larry Summers do anything as overt as…

If we are seeking truth, as we do in science, we must accept that there can never be anything wrong with attempting to analyze whether A outperforms B, no matter what A and B are. It doesn’t matter if it’s offensive or politically incorrect. So, what he did seems to be no more “overt” than attempting to analyze which thruster design is most efficient.

If he’s wrong, the most appropriate and most effective rebuttal is a dispassionate fact-based one, not a moral one.

There are going to be some things we learn that we don’t like to hear. I have no idea if this is one of them, and I’m not the person to ask.

Either he is correct, and we have to deal with it, or he isn’t, and we don’t really advance (or worse, we regress) until someone examines the subject more closely and provides something closer to truth.