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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#191

Post by harryh »

DannyBee wrote: post #179
harryh wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips. It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them for that. To use another analogy, if I'm a drug dealer and the cops try to buy drugs from me in a sting operation and I somehow figure out that they're cops and walk away before doing a deal is that obstruction of justice? Because I think t…

"But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips." Errr, sure it is. Their investigatory mechanism happen to be to try catch them on a trip they could prove originated in the city, giving them probable cause to stop them and ticket them. This just happens to be easier to do as a sting. "It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them f…

As the lawyer in this conversation I'm gonna assume that you're right. Seems like a pretty broad law though. Seems like it could be an add on to almost any other criminal act as criminals almost always try to avoid getting caught one way or another.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#192

Post by oculusthrift »

striglia wrote: post #35

So I ask this mostly out of horrified curiosity -- is there any negative press or revelation that could actually sink Uber at this point? What would it take for the company to fail? We've seen: * Systematic flouting of laws in public * Even further hidden avoiding of laws * Sexism complaints across the board * What appears to be a pervasive toxic culture, inspired (if not explicitly encouraged) straight from the CEO'…

press doesn't matter. all that matters is if they have money. you'd think people would realize the uselessness of bad press after Trump won.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#193

Post by djloche »

cbr wrote: post #120
DannyBee wrote: post #99

It says uber legal approved this, but uber legal is mostly corporate and ip counsel. I strongly doubt they had anyone with significant criminal experience look at this, because i have trouble seeing someone not immediately saying "you're joking,right? Are you stupid?" (unless they were a canonical tv mob lawyer)

Maybe Greyball was approved by Uber legal when it was envisioned as a system for excluding bad users (rival companies etc) and then without additional legal review they started using it to exclude suspected law enforcement?

My guess is that the approved tool the company allows to merely build a profile of the additional details necessary to provide additional 'white glove' style service to VIPs to ensure positive word of mouth occurs. Then they realized that they were seeing data that indicated that they were being watched a little closer by the .gov, and 'adjusted' the software to reject or process those people's Uber experiences differently.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#194

Post by a3n »

snappyTertle wrote: post #163
HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

I think the better question is: Does the law that Uber is subverting make sense in the first place?

And a better question than that is: should a corporation be picking and choosing which laws they follow and which they don't?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#195

Post by briandear »

nemacol wrote: post #100
lacampbell wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the US government much, but I like it a lot better than the average multinational. When it comes down to it, we don't have more than our choice of devils. If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber. What can I do if I don't like the service a state provides - can I opt out and stop paying? No, my only option is to flee - which the state will often try and prevent you doing anyway. The state is a huge…

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

Why would you need write Uber a letter? Don't like it, don't use it.

You don't have a say in government like you do with a private company. If I don't like the government, I have to hope that millions of other people agree with me. If I don't like a company, I alone can choose not to associate with it. My relationship with or without Uber is entirely up to me. I'm forced to endure the government whether I like it or not -- I could petition and protest until I'm blue and it won't make a difference to my life unless millions agree. With Uber, etc. I can simply stop buying their product and poof! They're out of my life.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#196

Post by Karunamon »

eridius wrote: post #157
Karunamon wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on what the laws are. A law gains no special moral quality via the legislative process. Immoral laws exist.

OP was arguing that because they don't like the law it's immoral to enforce. Whether or not OP likes the law really has nothing to do with whether the law is immoral.

Not sure I read it that way, but okay. But that reading requires you to ask "why", and sometimes it feels very much like the government lost the consent of the governed a looooong time ago..

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#197

Post by subpixel »

mdns33 wrote: post #76

bash them for the sexism agreed, but not everything. When riding a taxi was ridiculously expensive. Uber made it affordable and bought it to the middle class. Haters will remain haters.

In the US, riding in a taxi has never been ridiculously expensive, and it has not gotten any cheaper on account of Uber.

Moreover, Uber did not create a business to offer affordable rides to the middle class. They created a business to offer the sort of luxury that titans of industry who have private drivers experience, to people willing to pay for that service.

What Uber did do is make the 'car on demand' idea functional and ubiquitous. But A) they didn't do it legally and B) it turns on the 'on demand' part matters more to customers than the 'luxury' part.

So today, because rides are subsidized, you can summon a car and be driven around for what seems like quite a bargain. But subsidies are pretty much the opposite of 'product market fit'.

This news appears to be a clear-cut example of Uber not only breaking the law, but of obstructing justice to protect their illegal operations from enforcement of the law. I think that ought to be looked upon contemptuously.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#198

Post by nemacol »

darawk wrote: post #121
nemacol wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can vote, run for office, petition, volunteer, protest,etc to the local, state, and federal government to have policies that reflect your values. The only thing you can do with Uber is use it or not. Maybe you could write Uber a letter. You have a say in government - that is its stated goal and purpose. Of the people for the people.

The 'say' you have in government is much smaller than the 'say' you have in using Uber. I can choose not to use Uber any time I please. I can not choose not to be pulled over for speeding, or opt out of murder laws temporarily. The fact that you don't have a say in Uber's corporate decisions is irrelevant, because you can simply stop using it. You don't need a say. The fact that you can't opt out of government is why…

You can choose not to use Uber and effectively ignore them but that does not stop them from having an influence on you, your community, and your country.

It is true that being part of a government system is not a choice but without that community you would be dead or at least not an educated human with internet access.

You cannot reap the rewards of government, community, and progress and then turn around and want to abolish the systems that made those things possible just because you cannot speed and murder people.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#199

Post by DannyBee »

robryk wrote: post #190
DannyBee wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But the city's goal with these sting operations wasn't to catch and prosecute drivers/uber for previous trips." Errr, sure it is. Their investigatory mechanism happen to be to try catch them on a trip they could prove originated in the city, giving them probable cause to stop them and ticket them. This just happens to be easier to do as a sting. "It was to catch them in the act for a single trip and prosecute them f…

How does this jive with the right to avoid self-incrimination?

you don't have to say anything (except you should definitely affirmatively invoke your right)

Others often can say "i'm not getting involved" or something not misleading or deliberately intended to help you avoid prosecution[1]

But note: Outside of privileges, others often do not have that right to say nothing, it's just not forced in a lot of cases because it's pointless.

[1] they can also often be forced to get involved as a material witness, blah blah blah, in a lot of cases. You just wouldn't put them on the stand anyway because they're not going to be helpful.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#200

Post by creaghpatr »

us0r wrote: post #182
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Maybe not a popular opinion but I find this entire thing pure genius. >I couldn't find a good source, but it doesn't seem like that's something a CC merchant would have access to. Do they really get to see that? The first 6 digits of a credit card can identify the issuing bank (BIN number - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_card_number ). If you ask your merchant they can readily provide you and up to date list.…

Wouldn't be surprised if this concept spurs its own line of copycat startups i.e. "Uber Greyball for X"
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