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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#181

Post by fl0ki »

aftbit wrote: post #149
fl0ki wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Neo is an appliance. The Framework is a tool. I get where you're coming from in principle, but I'm not sure to what audience this actually applies. If you just want a laptop that can run the software you use, both are adequate as tools. The Framework's greater flexibility only applies to making changes to the tool itself, which doesn't matter if you didn't need to change it to suit your purposes. (And I say tha…

True, I was being a bit loose with my terminology. Some tools reward customization more than others. Machine tools and 3d printers are often used to produce parts, mods, and upgrades for themselves, for example. Screwdrivers aren't usually used to work on themselves though. The principle I was trying to express is that a Framework (and Linux, for that matter) is a tool more like a mill or an older 3d printer from the…

One thing I miss from when I mained workstation-class Linux laptops is indeed just how tinkerable they were, in a way that didn't feel like a compromise because no other workstation-class laptop was smaller, and smaller laptops had limited performance. You could upgrade RAM and replace a HDD with an SSD, you could drop in a PCMCIA card, you could bring interchangeable batteries, etc.

I appreciate that Framework has not only brought that back but expanded on it further, but they've done it at a very different time in the market. Now that maintainability and customizability does come at a compromise to at least one of cost, bulk, or performance. That's not only the case when compared to the Neo, as far as I know it's also the case at the high end compared to a MacBook Pro.

They've set out to do something that would be difficult in any case, but they're also doing it against Apple's advantages of vertical integration and economy of scale. I'm sure I'm not the only person that can deeply respect that while still not feeling any interest in buying any of their available products.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#182

Post by megous »

hadlock wrote: post #130
helterskelter wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. My wife is non tech and after dropping her XPS and breaking the screen she was real interested in something that can have a replacement display installed in about half an hour. She wishes her F13 were a little slimmer like her XPS, but she gets a lot of peace of mind knowing that repairs something that "even" she could do. I'd also say that Linux support basically from day 1 is their hidden killer feature. Lit…

Most people who want a user-replaceable screen just buy a Thinkpad. I've replaced the screen on all two of the thinkpads i've owned over the last 16 years. I still have my X series from 2010; it still works, only an ant crawled between two layers of the screen and died near the center and after 7 years it was time for an upgrade. It also ran (still runs) linux just fine due to that one guy at RedHat (who very recentl…

Hans :) https://www.phoronix.com/news/Hans-de-Goede-Leaving-Red-Hat

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#183

Post by Zak »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #180
Zak wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No such model exists. The Framework 13 comes closest, but a 13" screen and a premium shell would compete more directly with the Thinkpad X13. Direct price comparisons get tricky because different buyers care about different details. I really like the Thinkpad's Trackpoint, for example, but I also like the Framework's 3:2 aspect ratio. I'd have a hard time choosing.

Ymmv but the 16:10 screen on the framework punches a bit above its weight compared to 16:9 screens with a similar diagonal measurement

The Framework 13 has an aspect ratio of 3:2, not 16:10. The Thinkpad X13 has an aspect ratio of 16:10.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#184

Post by idle_zealot »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #97
bhouston wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CPU, GPU, and even DRAM sitting on the same "die" This is actually great. The laptop body stays the same and you swap out a small mini circuit board that has the CPU + GPU + DRAM on it. This is the point of the Framework laptops. They are just unfortunately stuck with non-Apple parts and thus are slow / inefficient. Maybe Qualcomm can make a motherboard for Framework high end laptops with their Snapdragon X2 Elite…

Funny thing is, the circuit board on the Neo is barely smaller than that of the lowest end iPhone. The only remaining big cost item swappable item at that point is the display. The benefits of modularity begin to get outweighed by the costs when 85% of the cost of the machine needs to be swapped out with each upgrade. For consumers, why would they not simply opt to spend the rest of the 15% to get a whole new compute…

> spend the rest of the 15% to get a whole new computer?

I can see why the manufacturer would want this. As a user though why would you? If the rest of the body is familiar and works well, why toss it?

Maybe the sentiment springs from the general culture of consumerism and new-is-better thinking, and historically that's been warranted in the consumer electronics space. Most things aren't really like that though. Humans have long built tools, clothing, furniture, and infrastructure designed to last a long time. You commit resources up front to make sure the thing is of high quality and then benefit for anywhere between decades to centuries. Replacement carries the risk of downgrading. Again, rapid technological advancement has blown this way of doing things away, but at some point parts of the tech plateau and this will need to be rediscovered. For things like keyboards, trackpads, and laptop cases, I don't see how "new" will beat "good" from this point on. Even displays are starting to reach limits. This seems like the right time to be working on "here is your reliable human interface device, drop in whatever crazy magic chip fabs have cooked up every X years to keep it capable."

From a humanist perspective there's another reason to move this way. People like to grow attached to objects and tools. Something has been lost in the shuffle of swapping out our most personal objects every few years.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#185

Post by _hyn3 »

nozzlegear wrote: post #174
cloverich wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other day i saw a slick scifi movie and really liked the interface in one of the random background terminals. I thought id recreate a working version of it. I snapped a screenshot on my iphone where i was watching, but lo it was blacked out? Same after several attempts. Ugh fine, go to my macbook, fire up netflix in a browser there, screenshot from desktop. Nope. Still blacked out. Its not just older architecture…

Is this just "Person discovers DRM, c. 2026" dressed up as a complaint about Apple?

Only if you are solely an Apple user, because it's literally not a problem anywhere else. I've taken tons of photos of movies with my Pixels.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#186

Post by _hyn3 »

fivetomidnight wrote: post #139
robspairpears wrote: post #87

Bought the Framework 12 as my personal daily driver (limited hobby projects, Obsidian, light browsing) and for the hardware to grow with my use cases. So even if I could get more bang for my buck with a Neo (yeah, I could), the tinkerability and repairability win over raw specs for what I actually use it for. Did I pay more for a less polished, less powerful machine? Yep. Is it enjoyable to use and fully capable of m…

You could get 4 Lenovo X280 if you just need an overpowered notepad.

Yeah, or a Macbook Neo! No need to disparage other people's use cases.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#187

Post by [deleted] »

rjrjrjrj wrote: post #176
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #26

I don't give a shit how fast and cheap the Neo is because I can't install the software I want/need on it or use it how I want.

Such as? Feels like the Neo covers pretty much all the bases: browsers like Chrome, Firefox, and alternatives IDEs like VSCode, IntelliJ, Eclipse open source heavy hitters like QGIS, Blender, Ghostty, even Gimp unix command line tools via HomeBrew, etc commercial suites like MS Office and Adobe

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#188

Post by 866-RON-0-FEZ »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #173
866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

Can you compare/contrast with the steam deck vent smell?

First I heard of this.

Apparently it's a meme and Zoomers are huffing their Steam Deck exhaust. Hmm.

From the descriptions I've read the smell is similar or identical.

Maybe they use the same magic ooze.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#189

Post by andrepd »

ghostpepper wrote: post #152
jbm wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they have supported PPC emulation forever Yes.

Supporting everything forever is how you end up with Windows

Windows has many flaws, being able to run any binary made in the past 30 years is not one of them.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#190

Post by iknowstuff »

_hyn3 wrote: post #185
nozzlegear wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this just "Person discovers DRM, c. 2026" dressed up as a complaint about Apple?

Only if you are solely an Apple user, because it's literally not a problem anywhere else. I've taken tons of photos of movies with my Pixels.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AndroidQuestions/comments/5biobx/is...
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