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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#151

Post by jimmaswell »

dheera wrote: post #19
GeekyBear wrote: post #11

> the Mac is faster (in most cases), more efficient, quieter, built better, has a much nicer display, and costs much less. The Framework is more expensive, slower (in most cases), louder (its fan ramps up quite often), has a pretty poor display, but it is a touchscreen, has a 360° hinge, and is more repairable and upgradeable. https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2026/its-hard-to-justify-f... The thing I was not expecti…

> has a pretty poor display Framework 13 has a very good display while 12 has a crappy display. If I was buying a new laptop the Framework 12 seems like a really nice portable form factor but the crappy screen of the 12 would hold me back.

I have a 12 and the screen is fine. It's no OLED but I have no complaints for what it is. I love it as a secondary tablet-laptop for drawing and reading comics (primary laptop is a Framework 16 which I'm also in love with for Unity3D game dev and similar tasks, that one needs Windows for Visual Studio but I'm enjoying Gentoo on the 12)

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#152

Post by ghostpepper »

jbm wrote: post #150
tencentshill wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is reasonable to stop supporting a platform that only hinders the user experience? Should they have supported PPC emulation forever? x86 is on the way out in for most consumer devices. Apple is usually a bit early to drop technologies, but still acknowledges and fixes real mistakes (USB-C-only laptops and the associated keyboards) when they impact customer experience.

> Should they have supported PPC emulation forever Yes.

Supporting everything forever is how you end up with Windows

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#153

Post by aldanor »

marssaxman wrote: post #47
Aurornis wrote: post #18

I love that Framework exists and I hope they succeed. I have been recommending them to friends and family who are looking for Windows or Linux laptops, though with some reservations due to the problems with a couple of their models. However I don't see the value in the Framework 12 over a MacBook Neo if someone isn't choosing by OS first. The $499 MacBook Neo is just so good for the price and so well built. The $499…

> if someone isn't choosing by OS first. What a surprising idea! I have always and only ever chosen by OS first. Are there really a significant number of people willing to buy a computer with no concern for the type of software it will be able to run?

What type of software will you not be able to run? Your browser will work just the same, and your dev env and devtools will be just the same, and it's a posix environment. If that's what I need most and it runs just about the same on macos/linux then why not prioritize the hardware?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#154

Post by hparadiz »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #140
benoau wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every generation of Mac has its own requirements that Asahi has to support through a painstaking process of reverse-engineering, so it lags behind quite a bit. Realistically it will probably be 2030 before you can use it on any current-generation Mac.

It's irritating to see it constantly recommended as a real option.

I think it's a feasible option I just can't use it for work because here's how that goes:

> "Hey can you remove MDM from this Macbook so I can install Linux?"

No.

> "Hey can I get a linux laptop for a hardware refresh?"

Sure.

Asahi on an M2 Macbook Pro supports almost everything https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#155

Post by abraxas »

I'm sorry but sometimes performance is not everything. Apple silicon - great except you are now in the Apple walled garden with all the consequences of it. Not to mention perpetually subpar developer experience without the rich Linux/Docker ecosystem. Yes, I know it is getting better but for developers there are still many warts. We just retired the last OSX laptops from my dev team because they were unproductive trying to work around some Docker limitations on OSX/Apple silicon.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#156

Post by moralestapia »

>and is more repairable and upgradeable

Oh no, that didn't matter to anyone[1], who would've thought!

Meanwhile AAPL goes brrr ...

It's sad because by the time other laptop manufacturers understand what people really want, Apple will have a 20 year lead on them. Hard to catch up with that.

1: Ok, 0.01% of consumers is not exactly "anyone" but close.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#157

Post by Zak »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #131
Zak wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Framework is definitely premium-priced, but I don't think most people are cross-shopping the Framework 12 (a 12" convertible tablet) and the Thinkpad E14 (a 14" dedicated laptop).

so it's competing with Framework 14?

No such model exists. The Framework 13 comes closest, but a 13" screen and a premium shell would compete more directly with the Thinkpad X13.

Direct price comparisons get tricky because different buyers care about different details. I really like the Thinkpad's Trackpoint, for example, but I also like the Framework's 3:2 aspect ratio. I'd have a hard time choosing.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#158

Post by wat10000 »

hparadiz wrote: post #154
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irritating to see it constantly recommended as a real option.

I think it's a feasible option I just can't use it for work because here's how that goes: > "Hey can you remove MDM from this Macbook so I can install Linux?" No. > "Hey can I get a linux laptop for a hardware refresh?" Sure. Asahi on an M2 Macbook Pro supports almost everything https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support

Almost everything, and that's already three generations behind.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#159

Post by cloverich »

benoau wrote: post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

The other day i saw a slick scifi movie and really liked the interface in one of the random background terminals. I thought id recreate a working version of it. I snapped a screenshot on my iphone where i was watching, but lo it was blacked out? Same after several attempts. Ugh fine, go to my macbook, fire up netflix in a browser there, screenshot from desktop. Nope. Still blacked out.

Its not just older architecture we are losing out on.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#160

Post by bb88 »

866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #147
whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

Is that true with the mac book airs? My understanding is that they're completely sealed, and they use the case as a heat spreader.
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