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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

171–180 of 695 posts

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#171

I don't give a shit how fast and cheap the Neo is because I can't install the software I want/need on it or use it how I want.

This is, if crude, the correct take. You always choose your applications first, then the operating system best suited for them, then the hardware platform.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#172
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the idea is that the upgrade will take it from decent to stellar compared to other things you might be able to buy for the same money, it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 to decent-in-2031 while paying a fraction of the cost that you would buying a full replacement in 2031, not to mention saving a bunch of waste. And then in 2036, and 2041, and 2046... They haven't bee…

> it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 Does "slower than an iPhone chip from a couple of years ago" meet that bar?

The CPU is specifically one of the upgradable components. Should a faster CPU be available in future there's the option to swap it in.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#173

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

Can you compare/contrast with the steam deck vent smell?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#174
post #101

As nice as Apple's hardware is it's all undermined by who they are as a company, intentionally limiting their devices more and more while they relentlessly argue in courts and to regulators that we owe them more and more for using our devices. Rosetta 2's retirement announcement was when I realized I won't buy another Mac, I'm not interested in a computer that is preoccupied with stopping me from running software. Wo…

The other day i saw a slick scifi movie and really liked the interface in one of the random background terminals. I thought id recreate a working version of it. I snapped a screenshot on my iphone where i was watching, but lo it was blacked out? Same after several attempts. Ugh fine, go to my macbook, fire up netflix in a browser there, screenshot from desktop. Nope. Still blacked out. Its not just older architecture…

Is this just "Person discovers DRM, c. 2026" dressed up as a complaint about Apple?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#175
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

Yeah if your Macbook smells like that you need to be contacting Apple. That's obviously a manufacturing flaw. I've had multiple M series Mac pros from M1 up M5 and none of them have ever had an unpleasant smell.

[deleted]

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#176

I don't give a shit how fast and cheap the Neo is because I can't install the software I want/need on it or use it how I want.

Such as?

Feels like the Neo covers pretty much all the bases:

browsers like Chrome, Firefox, and alternatives

IDEs like VSCode, IntelliJ, Eclipse

open source heavy hitters like QGIS, Blender, Ghostty, even Gimp

unix command line tools via HomeBrew, etc

commercial suites like MS Office and Adobe

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#177

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

Is it feasible to run Linux on the Apple hardware? Seems like that could meet your requirements, except possibly "align with my values." I saw https://asahilinux.org/ but don't know how usable it is, or whether the long battery life and hardware support is preserved.

I love the Asahi project and I'll probably keep my oldest M-series Mac around to continue to play with Asahi. But even for the oldest Macs it supports, the feature list is not quite complete. The way Apple does a lot of things is bespoke and involves a different division of labor between firmware and operating system than conventional UEFI systems. It's hard to support. I don't want to be required to wait years for features like full support for Thunderbolt docks, and I also want to give my money to a company that proactively supports Linux (e.g., sending hardware to kernel developers, FreeDesktop graphics driver developers, DE maintainers, and distro maintainers in advance of the release of new products) rather than always buying used or giving my money to a company that merely tolerates Linux support.

Again, I love the ambition of the Asahi project and what they've done. They're impressive hackers, and thousands of people will doubtless get years of happy Linux life out of their work— maybe including me! I have no complaints for them, and no wishlist I want to bring to them. In fact, I think maybe I should send them a donation or a kind email or both upon their next release.

But I want to give the bulk of my financial support to a computer vendor who offers me first-class, day-1 support for software environments that make me feel happy and respected. The Asahi team can't turn Apple into that by themselves.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#178
post #67

This is a brutal (but polite -- classic US Midwestern Geerling 'kill them with kindness'!) side-by-side comparison. My heart goes out to the Framework Computer team. Any team trying to compete in this product space against the surprise from Mac Neo must feel crushed. That said, I am still very optimistic for Framework Computer. It seems like nerds are going wild for them.

Framework is and will always be a statement device. Like modern 4x4 suvs that only haul groceries and may never see dirt roads, the upgradability of a laptop is something few will ever exercise. Most people are buying the idea.

It may be less valuable now because of RAM/SSD prices, but I was able to benefit from my framework's modularity on Day 1 by saving hundreds of dollars by buying those components a la carte Instead of paying the heavily marked up prices some vendors charge for upgrades.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#179
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the idea is that the upgrade will take it from decent to stellar compared to other things you might be able to buy for the same money, it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 to decent-in-2031 while paying a fraction of the cost that you would buying a full replacement in 2031, not to mention saving a bunch of waste. And then in 2036, and 2041, and 2046... They haven't bee…

> it's about paying a bit extra now to be able to go from decent-in-2026 Does "slower than an iPhone chip from a couple of years ago" meet that bar?

For lots of things, yeah. Don't try to fold proteins or open Facebook or whatever, but if you want to run a 3d printer or make some drawings or organize a bunch of notes and docs it would be way more than enough.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#180
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so it's competing with Framework 14?

No such model exists. The Framework 13 comes closest, but a 13" screen and a premium shell would compete more directly with the Thinkpad X13. Direct price comparisons get tricky because different buyers care about different details. I really like the Thinkpad's Trackpoint, for example, but I also like the Framework's 3:2 aspect ratio. I'd have a hard time choosing.

Ymmv but the 16:10 screen on the framework punches a bit above its weight compared to 16:9 screens with a similar diagonal measurement
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