Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#181

Post by nunez » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 4:35 PM UTC

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #56

layer8 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of files and file systems is useful to regular computer users, even when they have no interest in knowing how things work under the hood. The issue is with mobile OSs, and that software companies like their apps to be a walled garden for your data as much as possible, and therefore resist exposing your data as files living in a normal shared file system. Even if you already work with files, they have you…

In the name of low effort, tangential, golden era HN comments: the decision to hide file format extensions on windows (and maybe other OSs) sucks soooo much. The point about mobile devices breaking the desktop metaphor and file system norms is really interesting. Higher quality discussion question: Files, buffers,file systems, file explorers, and window managers seem like useful abstractions to me for the human compu…

Because having the Reddit app store and load its configuration and such in iCloud, which almost every iOS user has an account for, is a much more seamless experience for most people.

Intricacies of file systems have always been a means to an end for regular computer users.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#182

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 4:55 PM UTC

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #142

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You only have so many hours to teach in a course, the more kids come in with, the farther you can go. If kids have to be taught what were once taken for granted, something else has to give.

In many countries, such a problem is solved via that a lot of incapable students are "weeded out" by brutal exams (in particular "math for computer scientists" exams are prone for this) in the beginning or in the first semesters - consider it to be a kind of hard "sink or swim"-style curriculum.

We do that also. But this is MT state, not MIT.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#183

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

dismalaf wrote: post #159

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actual old fashioned file systems aren’t really in use anymore, and the computerized versions hide the details, you don’t even get a command prompt on an iPad. I’m pretty sure my 8 year old has no clue what a file system is yet (I learned at about 7 when my dad brought home an Osborne with pre-DOS CPM to play around with). Computers don’t require you to know that stuff anymore just to use apps and save/get files.

The details being hidden on toys doesn't mean they're not relevant to a course training people to be developers...

Yes, but it does mean they might not know what they are before they take said course.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#184

Post by engcoach » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

mike_hearn wrote: post #174

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the name of low effort, tangential, golden era HN comments: the decision to hide file format extensions on windows (and maybe other OSs) sucks soooo much. The point about mobile devices breaking the desktop metaphor and file system norms is really interesting. Higher quality discussion question: Files, buffers,file systems, file explorers, and window managers seem like useful abstractions to me for the human compu…

Files have big downsides for both users and developers, which is why they have largely been phased out other than for specialised pro use cases: 1. Many users find recursive data structures like trees to be confusing. Recursion is the place where a lot of students fall off the train when learning programming. Trees are fundamental to file systems and explorers, but they aren't intuitive to a lot of people. That's why…

If recursion is confusing to people then files are a great weeding out function for folks studying computer science. We have too many clueless people in the industry, why add more?

Bundles are just folders with a bunch of files in them. How does that invalidate the concept of files?

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#185

Post by throw-qqqqq » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 4:56 PM UTC

john_the_writer wrote: post #73

rat87 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also I couldn't find the authors age but judging by the fact they say they still use an Amiga they're probably at least in their 40s(unless they're a huge retro fan)

Also talked about C64's, like they lived through it. That brings them into their 50's. I got the feeling they've been at it a long time.

I’m 38 and from Northern Europe. We had a C64 when I was a kid. Tech spread slower outside the US back then I think :)

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#186

Post by mexicocitinluez » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 5:26 PM UTC

jrm4 wrote: post #120

This feels like plumbers thinking that using some weird type of toilet fitting is killing civilization.

that is exactly what it is. it's a pseudo-intellectual (in this case Jonathon Blow) who thinks he's got it all figured out.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#187

Post by tuna74 » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 5:26 PM UTC

deanCommie wrote: post #47

torlok wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're getting close to ad hominem. It should be sufficient to point out how little overall people like Blow have accomplished. Blow is a hard worker, and yet it took him and his team 8 years to develop The Witness, which as you pointed out isn't anything revolutionary. I think there's a weird form of elitism at play here. Working close to the hardware isn't hard. There was a point in my early 20s where I too…

The Witness isn't revolutionary, but it is crafted with the care of someone who cares about the small details of 3D worlds. Besides being easily one of the deepest/broadest puzzle games of the decade, it is GORGEOUS, and filled to the brim with visual scenes that take your breath away. To me it's something more akin to the iPod. "No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame." was absolutely a correct way to dismiss it…

I thought it was boring and not was not impressed by the visuals.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#188

Post by TheMode » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 5:34 PM UTC

sarchertech wrote: post #143

TheMode wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have actually watched many of his videos, as an individual I very much like his advices. What I am saying however is that this has nothing to do whatsoever with improving software at scale. But my point still stands, Casey focuses solely on the cultural aspect but completely ignore the technical one. He says that developers became lazy/uninformed, but why did that happen? Why would anything he currently say solve i…

I don’t think you can blame him for not having a large scale systemic solution to the problem. Imagine if there was a chef on YouTube who was telling everyone how bad it was that we are eating over processed food, and he makes videos showing how easy it is to make your own food at home. Would it be reasonable to comment to people who share the chefs message that you don’t like how his cooking videos don’t solve the r…

But he says that he has a large-scale systemic solution, it is literally the reason for his videos.

He isn't doing it so I can get my CPU trivia, but because he believes it will result in better software. Been at it for years, and so far I don't think it's going better.

My opinion is that better software will not come from CPU-aware people, but from people having enough of all the BS and switching to simpler solutions. You speak about language/libraries, what make you think it would come from those?

I do believe he is smart, just unfortunate he puts his talent on the wrong path. It's not like he does not understand the impact of simplicity/working independently, as it is how he made his "fast terminal" showcase: by tying to bypass system libraries as much as possible, transforming it into a simple (or at least less theoretical) problem.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#189

Post by mike_hearn » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 5:42 PM UTC

engcoach wrote: post #184

mike_hearn wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Files have big downsides for both users and developers, which is why they have largely been phased out other than for specialised pro use cases: 1. Many users find recursive data structures like trees to be confusing. Recursion is the place where a lot of students fall off the train when learning programming. Trees are fundamental to file systems and explorers, but they aren't intuitive to a lot of people. That's why…

If recursion is confusing to people then files are a great weeding out function for folks studying computer science. We have too many clueless people in the industry, why add more? Bundles are just folders with a bunch of files in them. How does that invalidate the concept of files?

We're talking about why smartphones and tablets are designed without emphasizing files, and why students start CS courses without knowing what filesystems are. That's the reason. By all means, weed out everyone who isn't already self taught in desktop computing skills, that's a different discussion.

Bundles are an attempt to simplify file format development, or can be seen that way, but it failed exactly because they are folders not files, and therefore aren't really usable because they can't be easily transmitted. You can't drag a bundle onto an email, or upload it to a file sharing platform, or send it via Bluetooth. Apple used to use bundles for iLife word processor documents, spreadsheets etc. They had to give up because it caused too many problems. Nowadays they use ZIPs like everyone else.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#190

Post by TheNewsIsHere » Sun, Feb 09, 2025, 5:52 PM UTC

rjbwork wrote: post #88

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the name of low effort, tangential, golden era HN comments: the decision to hide file format extensions on windows (and maybe other OSs) sucks soooo much. The point about mobile devices breaking the desktop metaphor and file system norms is really interesting. Higher quality discussion question: Files, buffers,file systems, file explorers, and window managers seem like useful abstractions to me for the human compu…

> Why did we not end up with something like ... Because that's anti-thetical to control. The biggest sin in a technology business is allowing your customers to stop using your product with no negative consequences for them.

I have spent so much time working with users that I don't agree. I think the lock-in is simply a useful side effect for the MBAs.

If you're making software or hardware for millions of users then abstraction becomes your friend in a variety of ways, some of which are immediately obvious and some of which are not.

I used to work for a company which sold software for both desktop and mobile. The earliest versions of the mobile software assumed you also had the desktop software: it was more of a companion to the desktop software. That changed over time, and it was a painful migration because we had to build a lot along the way. It was kind of like in a game where you're running through the sky building a walkway in front of you as you go.

Over time not having some kind of seamless syncing and handheld migration option became a liability for a variety of reasons, and a big economic one was support overhead. Asking users, at scale, to do things with files on their mobile devices (let alone with both their mobile device and computer) was asking a lot. So much so that we ended up expending an increasingly economically unjustifiable amount of time hand-holding users through very basic steps. Our technical users got it just fine, and we basically just had to provide cover when something unexpected or untested happened, but that was a minority of users.

I agree with the general sense here that it's to our detriment generally that basic computer literacy for things like files and folders is decreasing, and that it's made worse by trying to abstract those primitives away. On the flip side, the market is going to serve itself best by meeting people where they are. Businesses aren't going to try to educate people, they're just going to take the path of least resistance which only serves to enable (or you like, underwrite) a continued regression in basic computer literacy.