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Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

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Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#51

Post by scarface_74 »

ninetyninenine wrote: post #32

No it’s not. Software is killing the US and not because it abstracts low level stuff. It’s because it abstracts reality in such a way that the US is becoming a nation of software engineers ignorant of even how to build the stuff it programs. We’ve moved up the stack and moving up the stack requires people knowledgeable about the bottom. One can’t exist without the other so the world isn’t getting destroyed. China is…

You realize that the US is still designing the most advanced processors and technology. Now if you argued that the US has forgotten how to manufacture anything, I would agree with you.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#52

Post by wanderlust123 »

sd9 wrote: post #10

Blow often makes fantastic points about development, and often completely misses the mark. He’s accomplished great things and has ideas worth listening to - but also plenty of nonsense that’s presented indistinguishably. I felt quite strongly that the collapse of civilisation talk was one of those pieces of nonsense, and I’ve largely ignored it (despite listening to it twice). I’m grateful to OP for providing a more…

What do you disagree with Casey Muratori on specifically? I have seen some of his content and he seems pretty humble but opinionated on things he knows about. I also think he did a great job with handmade hero.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#53

Post by lmz »

layer8 wrote: post #23
recursivedoubts wrote: post #13

I teach the systems class at Montana State, where we go from transistors up to a real computing system, and I have students that don't understand what a file system really is when they start my class I agree that blow is wrong on some details, but I really think we need to be thinking hard around a NAND-to-Tetris style education that starts in high school for our technical students. I use "outdated" models like Littl…

The concept of files and file systems is useful to regular computer users, even when they have no interest in knowing how things work under the hood. The issue is with mobile OSs, and that software companies like their apps to be a walled garden for your data as much as possible, and therefore resist exposing your data as files living in a normal shared file system. Even if you already work with files, they have you…

Which is a better security model in these days of untrusted apps vs the desktop "my screensaver can read my chrome passwords file" model.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#54

Post by foobiekr »

raincole wrote: post #49
Swizec wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They think that React is itself what browsers render My kingdom for native JSX in the browser. That would be awesome . Something similar to how we have WebGL and Canvas, but for pure JavaScript UI without the extra step of DOM reconciliation. There’s a small (and growing) cohort of people working on rendering React Native directly on canvas or webgl (I think). Supposedly gives you super smooth UX, but I haven’t kno…

> super smooth UX I think typical front end developers (or the managers they report to) don't really know what smooth UX is. They keep reinventing things like scrolling .

There's almost no HCI or interaction design in what passes for UX today. They are mostly - probably 90+% of them - visual designers who have memorized some canned responses to use when asked why they aren't doing basic things.

Seriously, anyone who things software as a discipline is bad, well, they're right, but they have no appreciation for how appalling "UX" is today vs even 1990.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#55

Post by foobiekr »

rat87 wrote: post #25
dostick wrote: post #2

It appears that author is from that newer generation, and completely misses points because he just don’t know. Ironically the article is an example of what Blow was talking about. similar happens if I talk about how Figma is destroying the design world on unprecedented scale by normalising bad UX, UI and product management found in Figma itself, and get responses from younger designers that everything is great, compl…

He demolished Blows argument so I don't think it's important to bring up age but it does seem like he is likely at least in his mid forties. The Amiga was popular in the late 80s > "The argument that software is advancing is obviously false" I still regularly use my beloved Amiga computers. A couple of weeks ago, I was copying a file to an Amiga's hard drive when the computer suddenly decided to crash on me. Not beca…

Figma absolutely sucks.

It is slow, but more importantly, by encouraging UX designers to work in high fidelity designs where live changes are frustrating and feedback is entirely incorporated as a bunch of mostly-hidden comments in a sandbox that makes it hard for reviewers to follow up on or reference back to, all it's done is made everything worse.

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#56

Post by DiggyJohnson »

layer8 wrote: post #23
recursivedoubts wrote: post #13

I teach the systems class at Montana State, where we go from transistors up to a real computing system, and I have students that don't understand what a file system really is when they start my class I agree that blow is wrong on some details, but I really think we need to be thinking hard around a NAND-to-Tetris style education that starts in high school for our technical students. I use "outdated" models like Littl…

The concept of files and file systems is useful to regular computer users, even when they have no interest in knowing how things work under the hood. The issue is with mobile OSs, and that software companies like their apps to be a walled garden for your data as much as possible, and therefore resist exposing your data as files living in a normal shared file system. Even if you already work with files, they have you…

In the name of low effort, tangential, golden era HN comments: the decision to hide file format extensions on windows (and maybe other OSs) sucks soooo much.

The point about mobile devices breaking the desktop metaphor and file system norms is really interesting.

Higher quality discussion question: Files, buffers,file systems, file explorers, and window managers seem like useful abstractions to me for the human computer user. Why did we not end up with something like “every app has a folder with your files” or “if you have a new iPhone, just send or recover your user files from the official Reddit app on your old device and import them to carry on where you left off on your new device. Welcome back to the Reddit app.”

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#57

Post by jiggawatts »

wanderlust123 wrote: post #52
sd9 wrote: post #10

Blow often makes fantastic points about development, and often completely misses the mark. He’s accomplished great things and has ideas worth listening to - but also plenty of nonsense that’s presented indistinguishably. I felt quite strongly that the collapse of civilisation talk was one of those pieces of nonsense, and I’ve largely ignored it (despite listening to it twice). I’m grateful to OP for providing a more…

What do you disagree with Casey Muratori on specifically? I have seen some of his content and he seems pretty humble but opinionated on things he knows about. I also think he did a great job with handmade hero.

Personally I find that Casey presents simple hard facts that rile people up, but at that point they're doing... what? Arguing with facts?

He had a particularly pointed rant about how some ancient developer tools on a 40 MHz computer could keep up with debug single-stepping (repeatedly pressing F10 or whatever), but Visual Studio 2019 a on multi-GHz multi-core monster of a machine can't. It lags behind and is unable to update the screen at a mere 60 Hz! [1]

I have had similar experiences, such a the "new Notepad" taking nearly a minute to open a file that's just 200 MB in size. That's not "a small cost that's worth paying for some huge gain in productivity". No, that's absurdly bad. Hilariously, stupidly, clownshoes bad. But that's the best that Microsoft could do with a year or more of development effort using the "abstractions" of their current-gen GUI toolkits such as WinUI 3.

This is not progress.

[1] The whole video is worth watching end to end, but this moment is just... sad: https://youtu.be/GC-0tCy4P1U?t=1759

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#58

Post by gerdesj »

recursivedoubts wrote: post #13

I teach the systems class at Montana State, where we go from transistors up to a real computing system, and I have students that don't understand what a file system really is when they start my class I agree that blow is wrong on some details, but I really think we need to be thinking hard around a NAND-to-Tetris style education that starts in high school for our technical students. I use "outdated" models like Littl…

"I teach the systems class at Montana State,"

You teach and hence deal with this: "Information passed on between generations is diluted"

Is it diluted? No it isn't. Your job is teaching and books and computers help us avoid calling you a bard 8) Mind you, being called a bard is not a bad thing!

In the end this is a blog post response to another blog post. I have no idea about how "important" those bloggers are but I smell ... randomly deployed blogging for the sake of it. That's the whole point of a blog anyway. I'm being polite here ...

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#59

Post by bluefirebrand »

mjr00 wrote: post #41
bena wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does he though? It seems like he just makes these broad critical statements then pisses off to continue to do nothing. I wouldn’t even say he’s accomplished great things. He’s accomplished some decent things. He’s released two games which barely qualify as games. They’re more like puzzles. You don’t need to play them ever again after you finish the first time. Braid is ok. And the Witness is just Flow. And then after…

> He’s released two games which barely qualify as games. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but it's worth pointing out that Braid is not only widely considered one of the best games ever made[0], its success was also instrumental in the explosion of indie games in the late 00s/10s. The Witness didn't quite reach the same heights, but it got an 87 on Metacritic and was a financial success. Even if it's only two games…

> Braid is not only widely considered one of the best games ever made[0]

The source here is a wikipedia article containing "A list of video games that multiple have considered to be among the best of all time"

I don't know anyone who is into gaming that takes the opinions of "video game journalists or magazines" seriously anymore. They are so obviously just a marketing extension of the videogame industry that you can't trust anything they say. Look at recent developments with Dragon Age Inquisition. Reviewers gave it great scores, but it flopped hard enough that Bioware had huge layoffs [0]

Braid is a game that people barely remember exists today, and in another 10 years it will be even more obscure. It is not remotely an all time great

> its success was also instrumental in the explosion of indie games in the late 00s/10s

Don't give Braid too much credit here, it caught the indie game wave at the start but the wave was coming either way. The explosion happened at the same time Braid came out, not years later inspired by its success.

[0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2025/02/02/after-drag...

Re: Is software abstraction killing civilization? (2021)

#60

Post by wredcoll »

harrall wrote: post #39

If an older web developer rants about abstraction, they will target React developers. If a Python dev rants about abstraction, they will target older web developers. If a C++ application dev rants about abstractions, they will target Python developers. If a firmware dev rants about abstractions, they will target application developers. If an electrical engineer rants about abstractions, they will target firmware deve…

God, you're right, this is almost as bad as those "well chemistry is just applied physics and physics is just applied mathematics so math is the best" nonsense that shows up every so often.
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