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DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

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Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#181

Post by drrotmos »

dgacmu wrote: post #169
drrotmos wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, don't get me started on what the problem is :D * Espresso machine electronics are very proprietary. There's basically one manufacturer, no published schematics and very closed firmwares. * That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it. * Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller with the new firmware is your only option. * Espresso m…

Which one manufacturer do you have in mind? Perhaps you're thinking of the commercial market and I'm thinking of consumer, but there's been a lot of really interesting developments in the last few years at the intersection of affordable and high quality output -- I own a plus Bambino plus now, for example, which is simply a delightful machine, though I too wish I could modify the firmware.

Gicar. If you're looking at home machines from manufacturers that also do commercial (e.g. Profitec, ECM, Lelit, Rancilio, La Marzocco etc), they almost exclusively use Gicar electronics.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#182

Post by freestyle24147 »

Bluecobra wrote: post #22
wkirby wrote: post #6

Love it. There’s a surprising amount of hackability in espresso machines — reminds me a lot of bicycles as an approachably fun tinkering project.

Do you know of any resources to help learn bicycles? I wish I could tune my own bicycle but can't seem to figure it out. I can build my own computer, change the oil in my car, paint a house, etc. but my bicycle always befuddles me.

Can anyone explain how this is still a valid question in 2024 with all of the resources we have at our disposal? Google, Youtube, books, ChatGPT.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#183

Post by everybodyknows »

a012 wrote: post #162
dfxm12 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also at least as expensive as more advanced machines you can buy already-assembled. Exactly. The parent post mentions this being "the wrong solution to the problem", but I don't know what the problem is this product is addressing. E61 machines are well understood and diagrammed with (somewhat) interchangeable parts. If this product appeals to you, you can buy a cheaper/similarly priced machine, take it apart and…

And also branded machine got QC before going to my home, instead I’d not trust myself to do anything related to the boilers

Not my Baratza Vario grinder. First two units had line-hot shorted to ground.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#184

Post by cruffle_duffle »

ManDeJan wrote: post #116

A neat project for sure but as it stands this has major safety issues. The control logic is able to lock up and keep the boilers heating element in an forever "on" state till something snaps. I couldn't find a mention of safety in the manual nor see any mechanical safety failsafes in case of overheating.

Lots of 3d printers used to have issues like this with the firmware controlling their hotends. They’d fail on and start a fire. Modern Klipper and Marlin firmware detect wild or unexpected temp swings and pull the “emergency stop” cord to shut it all down.

And speaking of safety, old FPV flight control software didn’t handle a very common mistake. It is very easy to put the wrong propeller on a motor. For example you might accidentally put on the counterclockwise propeller on the motor that spins clockwise. The result is when you arm the quad (as in turn on the motors), it flips its shit because the quad starts moving in a completely unexpected way. The flight control software is designed to “lock the angle (attitude) of the quad in and fight any uncommanded deviation”. Well, a backwards prop produces a hell of an uncommanded deviation!! So the controller tells the motor to spin faster to compensate but all that does is make things worse as the backwards prop pushes the thing in the exact wrong way. So it becomes an out of control quad that can and will cause property damage and injury (the propellers on a quad are large, very sharp and attached to very powerful motors. Coming into contact with a spinning propeller will send you to the hospital). This was a big problem in tight spaces like races and stuff.

A while ago somebody submitted a pull request that added a safety. When first arms, if the quad starts to behave “wrong” or “unexpected”, it immediately disarms. From what I recall it was actually fairly simple to detect too… if the “error” in the PID loop got too high it means something is very wrong mechanically and it’s best shut down. Countless fingers have no doubt been saved by this patch.

It’s probably very similar detection code to what is in 3d printer firmware or espresso machine firmware. If the PID error is “unexpected” something is mechanically wrong and it needs to shut down before Bad Things happen.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#185

Post by stiray »

timvdalen wrote: post #165
siffin wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, coffee from a 250 EUR espresso machine and a higher end machine are still espresso. Stovetop doesn't make espresso coffee. They are fundamentally different processes which product a completely different output.

I don't disagree that a moka pot and espresso are completely different processes, I'm saying that a 250 EUR espresso machine is not going to be capable of making actual espresso (barring stuff like Flair that takes away components to make it work).

But the facts are showing something else: https://www.delonghi.com/en-gb/products/coffee/manual-espres...

Just head to technical data and feel free to explain which parameter is wrong. Take the cheapest one, 213 euros. Is is 15 (12) bar of pressure? Some other type of heater, as 1300 Watts of input power is not enough?

Seriously, I don't understand what the limiting factor is? Not expensive enough?

I even tried to find explanation by Hoffman and:

- cheaper

- plastic, not a lot of metal

- light

- small drip tray

- you need to "grip" it, whatever that means

- if you are clumsy you press buttons

- what you would expect for the money

But nothing about the taste of espresso... ;)

Somehow it looks not luxurious enough, right?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L7WniyTqV9I

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#187

Post by dessimus »

2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #149
stiray wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I mention audiophiles? The first feeling when you turn on a new system, it will never come back, until you get an arguably better system... And the rabbit hole is deep. How much did you pay for grinder? I think this is worth (for espresso lover) far more than 1250 euro machine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTFsBqhpLes&list=PLxz0FjZMVO...

Audiophiles are a bad analogy since you can setup a blind taste test of coffee equipment. And different people will make the same identifications. Which suggests that we all tasted the same thing. Where as you can’t tell the difference between cables. I’m all for being skeptical, especially with something as subjective as taste. But it always amuses me that people never bother to check their skepticism. Has it ever o…

Someone actually did a blind study comparing flat vs conical grinders with over 150 coffee professionals [0] to find they could not discern a difference in how the coffee was ground before being brewed while controlling for other variables.

So it would seem that Audiophiles are the perfect analogy.

0: https://youtu.be/3XYTi6OBecA?t=2400 (Discussion on the study begins around 34:00)

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#188

Post by BugsJustFindMe »

righthand wrote: post #180
satvikpendem wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pareto principle. I bought a Gaggia but didn't do all of the extra stuff you mentioned, because I simply don't care enough for marginal returns. That's why a moka pot, which I had before, would still not be a good enough successor, because getting just the Gaggia is enough for most people who want to make espresso, the optimizations you talk about, while I have heard of all of them, are pretty much unnecessary if you…

The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine. I agree that the gains are marginal. With a PC, I can upgrade my ram and the gains might be marginal, but I still have a world of free stuff I can install and tinker on it. Once the espresso machine is built/upgraded then that’s it really. You can only buy more things for it. There is no exploratory afte…

> The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine.

The advice from anyone trying to sell you fancy tools and from anyone trying to justify to themselves that they bought fancy tools will always be that you need to buy fancy tools in order to enjoy the product. It is, of course, an obvious fabrication to anyone not inside this loop, and a form of cruelty against someone like you who got burned by it and wants out.

> I agree that the gains are marginal.

Not even marginal. It very very very quickly becomes so far below marginal that neutrinos and putting your left leg into your pants first instead of the right leg will make a more consistent difference, but people will continue to exaggerate differences and insist that you need to spritz the grounds with holy water and give them a back massage first before brewing to make anything halfway palatable.

> Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better

And a moka costs $20 and lasts through a nuclear war.

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#189

Post by wkat4242 »

Arch-TK wrote: post #88
tssva wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of people find them to be quite tasty and many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee. Coffee snobbery is like most snobbery it says more about the person being snobby.

You don't know what I am calling a good coffee. I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour coffee because it's unusual for them but you can do a lot better than nespresso in the realm of that style of darker roast coffee too. It's really simple, people are happy with it because actually good coffee is so rare that they have nothing to compare against. I also doubt most of these people have ever drank a wel…

> I appreciate some people don't like particularly sour coffee

Is that normal in 'good' espresso? I've had some coffee from shops with a particularly sour taste and I don't like it. It's not really because it's 'unusual' to me, I just really don't like it.

PS: I don't drink it with milk nor sugar. Just plain espresso with nothing (just in the morning I do like it americano with water). I like the strong taste and I hate milk :)

Re: DiyPresso: DIY Espresso Machine

#190

Post by ndsipa_pomu »

Arch-TK wrote: post #159
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we actually still don't know how unsafe microplastics are That's the problem though. We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to put microplastices everywhere and see what happens. It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies.

>We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to put microplastices everywhere and see what happens. Honestly, I think if you think about it and look around, we are test subjects for a whole swathe of worldwide experiments of various kinds. At some point you have to just realise that it's the cost of progress. I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely th…

> I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does nothing, but it's more than likely (all things considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.

I don't see how you can evaluate the cost of using plastics everywhere when the biggest benefit is simply to increase profits for huge corporations that don't have to worry about cleaning up after themselves.

> But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.

I don't think it is alarmist to decry putting microplastics with unknown effects, into literally everywhere, including people's brains and mothers' breast milk. It's an obviously stupid thing to do - "we don't know what this does, let's pollute the entire planet with it and see what happens".

> if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant amount we would probably already know about it.

That seems overly optimistic to me. There's plenty of nasty chemicals/products that were sold for long periods of time before we eventually realised the damage that we were doing. e.g. lead in fuel, asbestos in buildings, tobacco usage etc. We have already noticed the direct harm that PFAs cause to human development and yet you seem happy to carry on spreading microplastics everywhere without requiring any evidence that they are safe.

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