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Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

med.stanford.edu

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Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#181

Post by raindeer2 »

mysecretaccount wrote: post #122
serverlessmom wrote: post #108

Hey! I didn't under go SAINT TMS specifically, but I have undergone TMS therapy. Reading this article I'm not sure how different what I received actually is compared to SAINT, but TMS absolutely changed my life. I was referred to TMS after a rash of different medications and years of talk therapy fell short on relieving the worst of my symptoms. Many of the benefits the patients in this article discuss are ones I rec…

I have some questions if you don't mind: Was it expensive? Are there any downsides? Do you think TMS is, like psychedelic therapy, potentially useful for people without depression (i.e. the "betterment of well people")?

Re. How expensive it is. There are cheap home-use alternatives to TMS. For instance tDCS.

Here is a great comparison of noninvasive brain stimulation techniques for depression treatment: https://www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l1079

A company that offers tDCS as a home treatment for depression can be found here: https://flowneuroscience.com/

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#182

Post by jokowueu »

carabiner wrote: post #66
jcims wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that this is an enhancement to an existing therapy. Depending on where you are in the world and the healthcare providers you have access to, the existing therapy called Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation (TMS) may be an option.

Some TMS clinics are offering the SAINT protocol off-label. Not covered by insurance of course, supposedly runs around $6k.

Can you please provide some links to said providers . I wasn't able to find any. Just some that mention it

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#183

Post by agumonkey »

FailMore wrote: post #176

While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the approach that exploring my subconscious through therapy was the way to get out. For me it worked very well and I think the journey is an amazing one to go on. Building from the ground up and understanding all the foundations within. I always wonder about treatm…

There are a few psychological constructs in our head that really tie deep into the mental pain

I forgot who i saw recently that said we have a strong mirroring need in our brain, which means our happiness is extremely relative, if you suffer while people don't .. it hurts more; if people are in the same boat the pain gets softer.

Oh and yeah unconscious fears are often the root of so many mental issues.. abandoning (to) fears is often a massive trick.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#184

Post by replwoacause »

throwDec21 wrote: post #116
pcurve wrote: post #57

“I don’t procrastinate anymore,” he added. “I’m sleeping better. I completely quit alcohol. I’m walking my dog and playing the guitar again, for nothing more than the sheer joy of it.” Most importantly, he said, “I’m remaining positive and being respectful of others. These are big changes in my life.” Serious question: are these typical signs of depression? Now I'm wondering if I have depression.

Procrastination, not enough sleep, alcohol and no hobbies sounds pretty normal for most people.

Lately I've been reflecting on the source of my low feelings and I have determined that in my case that alcohol is playing a key role. It is a de-motivator and its effects are pernicious in that it causes the user to become unaware that it is responsible for exacerbating depressed moods even after feeling intoxicated has worn off. I drink responsibly but think its time to cut it out to see if I feel better.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#185

Post by comboy »

pcurve wrote: post #57

“I don’t procrastinate anymore,” he added. “I’m sleeping better. I completely quit alcohol. I’m walking my dog and playing the guitar again, for nothing more than the sheer joy of it.” Most importantly, he said, “I’m remaining positive and being respectful of others. These are big changes in my life.” Serious question: are these typical signs of depression? Now I'm wondering if I have depression.

I think symptoms of depression are reduced to too few dimensions (these being all disorders names coming from a science which cannot reproduce most of its results).

Imagine Einstein. He can't figure it out and solve the constant problem. Somethings not right. He's not happy, not sleeping well. He's thinking hard.

But then, he takes a pill. Suddenly, no more thinking during bike rides. "I'm just looking around and dopamine rushes in, it's great".

(I'm not discouraging treatment if you have a problem !! Positive feedback loop of negativity can kill you.)

I just mean that if you have high standards you may be less easily satisfied. I do think it's good to be able to step back and really enjoy a walk or music without a care in the world, but I also don't think there's something wrong with people who don't, and instead just focus on their problem. Or even are just looking for a problem or a puzzle interesting enough to solve.

It's all in the context. Sleep is important, you should sleep well. But maybe if you are lunching a rocket tomorrow it's fine to have a problem sleeping. Respect to others is the most basic thing, but maybe if they keep distracting you from work which can improve everybody's life it's ok to say something harsh but effective. And so on.

I don't think you can truly change the world if you sincerely enjoy its current state.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#186

Post by jokowueu »

ck2 wrote: post #126

who the heck figured this treatment out because that is some incredible "debugging" > They applied the stimulation in a subregion that has the strongest relationship with the subgenual cingulate, a part of the brain that is overactive in people experiencing depression. The transcranial magnetic stimulation strengthens the connection between the two regions, facilitating dorsolateral prefrontal cortex control of the a…

The story behind subgenual cingulate and mood had long been known . DBS targets it as well for depression

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC2729429/

Only difference here is that normal TMS targets a part of the brain that is not the same for every one. subgenual cingulate location for every one is a bit different . With help of fmri they can know exactly where it is instead of just using a default location

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#187

Post by ntSean »

JamisonM wrote: post #121
andai wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't control for the fact that the world sucks now, does it? I read a few months ago that ~25% of young adults had thoughts of suicide in the past year, so I think it's safe to say that the causes are more external than internal at this point.

Disentangling pandemic effects from "normal" life is complex but overall in the US suicide rates are actually down for 2020, though slightly increased for younger Americans. The trend in the US was upwards into 2019 so these are positive developments. It is very difficult to properly assess 2020-2021 survey data both because the "you should be depressed" messaging is very strong in the media and the bias in who respo…

> the bias in who responds to surveys is complicated by the pandemic.

Many people have lost family members and been pushed into poverty. It is incredibly callous to think mental health can be discretely measured without accounting for the environment.

Suicide is not a quantitative measure of mental health.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#188

Post by jokowueu »

fnord77 wrote: post #22

is this any different than the theta-burst TMS that's being trialied by other outfits?

TBS is just a higher dose TMS in a short period

This is TMS but they specifically targets the subgenual cingulate uniquely for each patient with help of fmri . Usuially they target a location at r13 which is easier but the location of the subgenual cingulate is unique to each person sometimes u are lucky and it's r13 sometimes it's not

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#189

Post by carabiner »

jokowueu wrote: post #182
carabiner wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some TMS clinics are offering the SAINT protocol off-label. Not covered by insurance of course, supposedly runs around $6k.

Can you please provide some links to said providers . I wasn't able to find any. Just some that mention it

This one in Georgia: https://rejuvenatetms.com/blog/

You can also search this TMS FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/285541688306686 for "saint" and find other people's experiences.

Edit: Apparently, the clinics that claim to be offering it might just be doing something that is loosely based on what is publicly known about the SAINT protocol. Dr. Nolan Williams hasn't released full details, so it's not possible for clinics to replicate it exactly. This clinic https://www.cambridgebiotherapies.com/accelerated-tms/ talks about how they've tried to reverse engineer the protocol at the bottom.

Re: Experimental depression treatment is nearly 80% effective in controlled study

#190

Post by ornornor »

xapata wrote: post #125
rubicon33 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had depression for 20+ years and the best way I would describe it is like this: Think of that little "kick" you get when you think of something you want to do. Maybe you like eating ice cream, maybe you like playing tennis, whatever it is... that feeling, that subconscious little mental boost that gets you up off your ass, and moving... is completely absent in the depressed mind. That spark that initiates and su…

It took me a while to realize that most people don't consider suicide as one of a few strategies to deal with everyday problems. Thought process: I don't want to do my homework. I could (A) get up and do it, or (B) kill myself. Happily, I've learned to dissociate myself from the part of my consciousness that thinks that way.

> suicide as one of a few strategies to deal with everyday problems.

That’s as much a solution to everyday problems as nuking the entire planet and the human race out of a existence is a solution to, say, Covid or hunger.

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