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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

economist.com

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#181

Post by throwaway184747 »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once).

I moved here from the US to start a company, and for anyone reading, listen to the above advice. (I'm not a US citizen, so non-trivial to do a startup).

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#182

Post by danmaz74 »

hermitdev wrote: post #144
contriban wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. My parents own a restaurant in Italy and if the authorities come it’s a € 2000/3000 fine for sure. For a small seasonal business that’s substantial. For example if you give a receipt and the customer misplaces it on the way out and can’t find anymore, you’re liable for tax evasion. Never mind that the POS has its own registry they can check. For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t…

> For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t tax you.” Honest question: is this actually the law, or a tactic of an official seeking a bribe?

It's the law

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#183

Post by tchvil »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Having started 3 companies in Belgium, and one in Spain. My experience differs. Opening an branch in the US was a pain in comparison.

I love our continent, for its project, its diversity, and trying to find the right balance between work and social welfare. Life can be more than GDP or market cap.

I stopped my The Economist subscription long time ago, per their constant anti-European bashing.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#184

Post by choeger »

hermitdev wrote: post #144
contriban wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can confirm. My parents own a restaurant in Italy and if the authorities come it’s a € 2000/3000 fine for sure. For a small seasonal business that’s substantial. For example if you give a receipt and the customer misplaces it on the way out and can’t find anymore, you’re liable for tax evasion. Never mind that the POS has its own registry they can check. For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t…

> For the authorities, “you didn’t give a receipt, so they can’t tax you.” Honest question: is this actually the law, or a tactic of an official seeking a bribe?

There is a very similar situation in Germany. The reason behind this is that you can use older POS systems for tax fraud (I never fully understood the details), which apparently was quite a thing amongst smaller businesses. The tax authorities then demanded a perfect chain of paper records (apparently the paper recipe contains some kind of a reference to earlier transactions). Bizarrely, they actually asked customers to keep these receipts which pretty much no one really did, but it was a public topic for a couple of weeks.

German source:

https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/FAQ/2020-0...

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#185

Post by ativzzz »

emptysongglass wrote: post #153
thijsc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

Work for a tech company in Europe. GDPR compliance is costing us massive manpower hours and money spent on compliance consultants. Most of my salary gets obliterated before it reaches me and I make significantly less than tech workers in the US. There's a lot to like about the security but I'm starting to wonder if I can ever really break out of working until I'm enfeebled here.

> I can ever really break out of working until I'm enfeebled here.

It's a different life model. The EU seems better aligned for enjoying life outside of work. The US seems better aligned for enjoying life as a result of work.

You can't break out of working in the US either, until you save up a lot of money, which requires either a super high paying career, or a ton of sacrifices in terms of quality of life

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#186

Post by kentlyons »

sildur wrote: post #178
laurent92 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, one may talk about all the startups (when the BPI pumps billions into it, I sure hope there are some startups and medium companies), but EU has proven unable to build an Apple . It would be dismantled here, and CEO beaten up before reaching any interesting level. DailyMotion (French) was as big as Youtube. Many others like this. We always end up #2, and the Silicon Valley still decides what is ok to say o…

EU built a Nokia. Until MS infiltrated and dismantled it, that is.

How much help did Nokia have from the EU?? Sure it was very Finnish, but not clear the EU helped. And it wasn't MS, it was Nokia itself in the face of Apple. I worked at Nokia and saw it first hand.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#187

Post by brainless »

systemvoltage wrote: post #156
brainless wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do not understand. I have more "skin" in the game than you might think. I am a founder who understands business, finance, talks to users, takes support tickets, can talk to investors, and write in 3 different programming languages, setup the entire software pipeline myself. I am more hands-on than you might have seen around. Trust me on that. Your definition of "skin" does not need to be mine. I want to h…

There are plenty of startups that are bootstrapped and without investor pressure: https://www.indiehackers.com/

Yes I totally agree and I am a fan of Courtland Allen or Rob Walling. They are not mainstream and in my opinion that is where it is going wrong.

We have too much emphasis from multi-million $ invested (and mostly non-sustainable) businesses. The success ratio for ridiculously invested startups can be tiny, and yet the investor will make money on the unicorns that pass the great filter. The others will not be heard of, will suffer. We celebrate the exceptions and ignore what an alternative could be if sustainable/profitable smaller businesses were the norm. A healthier society where we would normalize 8 hours of sleep every day, or spending time with neighbors, for our entire adult lives to start with.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#188

Post by ganzuul »

brainless wrote: post #123
systemvoltage wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry you had such an experience. Startup life has pros and cons, and situationally varied. I've worked on several startup ventures of my own and nothing in the world is more satisfying than "skin in the game". It feels real and impactful. I didn't work more than 8-10 hours a day. People using your products and gratification of the fact that you/your-team built is so much more real to me. Friendships I've formed…

I think you do not understand. I have more "skin" in the game than you might think. I am a founder who understands business, finance, talks to users, takes support tickets, can talk to investors, and write in 3 different programming languages, setup the entire software pipeline myself. I am more hands-on than you might have seen around. Trust me on that. Your definition of "skin" does not need to be mine. I want to h…

Is there a forum for like-minded people? I went and acquired all the technical skills I need but then discovered that I have zero interest in the profit motive.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#189

Post by mongol »

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

It makes no sense to talk about how hard it is to start a company in the EU because it will differ between every country. Better you say which country your experience is from.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#190

Post by hypertele-Xii »

Dma54rhs wrote: post #147
oneplane wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, people here don't tend to go bankrupt and lose their house, healthcare (ironically) and life (from a social aspect) in general when they don't have a perfect health. They don't have to hide their state of wellbeing from their employer in the hope of not getting fired, and they don't have to worry about living on the street because they don't have a job for a bit. Businesses are fun and all, but in…

You need to be employed in order to get Healthcare in most of the EU countries anyway, so it's not all that rosy as Americans tend to think.

Which countries is that exactly? I know for a fact Finland and Spain have free healthcare for the unemployed.
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