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Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

nytimes.com

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Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#181

Post by jolmg »

umvi wrote: post #166
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

> shouldn't you be be able to ... modify it however you want Not necessarily. Consider products that require radios like satellite internet transceivers. If you were allowed to "modify it however you want" you could easily modify it to put up a continuous wave and effectively DoS the satellite gateway, causing an outage for all other customers on the entire beam which is obviously something the ISP wants to avoid at…

Shouldn't the restriction be placed on the use of the shared resource (the air)? That is, modifying the transceiver should be fine on its own.

What I'm trying to point out is that your comment seems to suggest restricting users from making any (all) modifications, even if they wouldn't affect anyone but themselves, because they might make a modification would affect others. I think one should be allowed to make any modifications as long as they're made responsible for how those modifications affect others. And even if a modification potentially (not through every use) negatively affects others, they should only face consequences when the use actually affected others or went against regulations of the shared resource (the air).

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#182

Post by simion314 »

76543210 wrote: post #176
zepto wrote: post #120

Do they have any data at all to support this being a net benefit or is it only ideological?

Less new equipment? But really people bought Apple products and want the company to act differently. Don't buy from bad companies and it doesn't affect you.

>Don't buy from bad companies and it doesn't affect you.

Don't eat at bad restaurant and you won't get poisoned! You do not need warranty for your phone, don't buy from bad companies. We do not need safety checks for foods and medicine just don't buy from bad companies.

The issue is that companies put billions into PR, so even if Apple is a bad company it has a good image and it's products are a status symbol, the consumers can't compete with those billions.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#183

Post by PureParadigm »

umvi wrote: post #166
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

> shouldn't you be be able to ... modify it however you want Not necessarily. Consider products that require radios like satellite internet transceivers. If you were allowed to "modify it however you want" you could easily modify it to put up a continuous wave and effectively DoS the satellite gateway, causing an outage for all other customers on the entire beam which is obviously something the ISP wants to avoid at…

I'd say it's fine to modify it to be able to do that, as long as you don't actually turn it on and make it disrupt other people. For example, a car is very capable of crashing into people, but even though it can do that we expect people not to use cars in that way. Even though cars can be dangerous if used irresponsibility, there are legitimate reasons to have cars. Similarly, there are legitimate reasons to modify radios, and we should just expect people to use them responsibly the same way we expect car owners to use their cars responsibly.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#184

Post by nradov »

diablo1 wrote: post #109

I bought a few dumbphones from Amazon because I am scared that smartphones will be so pervasive and that dumbphones will be slowly phased out and you will be unable to buy them anymore. Smartphones are difficult to repair because the circuitry is hermetically sealed and you need specialist tools to open them up and tinker. Dumbphones, not so much. The parts are accessible and can be swapped out with working parts eas…

Only a few feature phones (dumb phones) even support 4G LTE. If you buy a phone without LTE support then it will become useless once carriers switch off their 3G GSM / CDMA base stations.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#185

Post by jolmg »

bluGill wrote: post #132
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

I own my home, but I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass. I own my car, but I'm not allowed to remove the headlights and drive at night. Exactly where we place the limits is up for debate, but I think I conclusively proved to everybody reading this that there need to be limits the only question is where.

> I own my home, but I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass.

I believe there are technical differences in how ownership of the land works in different jurisdictions throughout the world. The land or the earth below your grass might not be as yours as an article of clothing you're wearing.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#186

Post by AnthonyMouse »

umvi wrote: post #166
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

> shouldn't you be be able to ... modify it however you want Not necessarily. Consider products that require radios like satellite internet transceivers. If you were allowed to "modify it however you want" you could easily modify it to put up a continuous wave and effectively DoS the satellite gateway, causing an outage for all other customers on the entire beam which is obviously something the ISP wants to avoid at…

The obvious flaw in this argument, outside of what others have already mentioned (doing that is independently illegal), is that you don't need to modify an official device to do something like that. Building a radio jammer out of fundamental component parts is not a complicated affair.

It's like arguing that people shouldn't be able to modify their home batteries because they could use them to purposely damage the power grid. That's kind of a ridiculous scenario to worry about when the same infrastructure is already vulnerable to utterly pedestrian physical sabotage. It's a facile rationalization for imposing restrictions that have an ulterior motive.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#187

Post by lm28469 »

TomMarius wrote: post #149
lm28469 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a pure design item, so small and precise that any breakage of the shell could destroy it We have to come to term with the fact that owning such devices isn't good for humanity in the long term. > Who exactly will I hurt with my phone https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/burning-truth-... https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/27/europe-s-electronic-wast...

Eh, no, my country is one of the best of EU in recycling and waste management. I dispose of all waste exactly as I should in a clear, structured and very practical way. (any) phones are taken back for recycling by most sellers, for example.

Which country is that ? You can easily check recycling import/export per country online so that should be trivial to fact check. Pro tip: it doesn't look good for US/EU.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#188

Post by AnthonyMouse »

diablo1 wrote: post #109

I bought a few dumbphones from Amazon because I am scared that smartphones will be so pervasive and that dumbphones will be slowly phased out and you will be unable to buy them anymore. Smartphones are difficult to repair because the circuitry is hermetically sealed and you need specialist tools to open them up and tinker. Dumbphones, not so much. The parts are accessible and can be swapped out with working parts eas…

Might be better off to buy phones specifically designed for that, e.g. PinePhone or Librem 5.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#189

Post by pessimizer »

mathnovice wrote: post #161
9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have to accept it, people aka the power of majority does the rules. I see no benefits or the people shilling it are doing a bad job. Either way it's for us to accept it or make the concepts.

You are wrong. While the majority can create the rules the people that matter aren't the majority but creators and skilled professionals. When someone creates something they have absolute power over it until they reveal it to the world. They can even choose to destroy what they create rather than reveal it. When the majority (consumers) decide they want everything for free and that they want absolute power over the c…

> When someone creates something they have absolute power over it until they reveal it to the world.

The vast majority of these "creators and skilled professionals" are doing work for hire for the same people who own everything else, and have absolutely no control over the product of their labor.

Re: Europe Wants a ‘Right to Repair’ Smartphones and Gadgets

#190

Post by magduf »

bluGill wrote: post #132
cs702 wrote: post #80

When you buy a physical object, such as a home, a car, a shirt, or a smartphone, shouldn't you be be able to repair it, modify it however you want, use it for different purposes, loan it to friends, sell it to others, and so on -- you know, all the rights and benefits associated with the concept of private ownership ? And when you buy a software object, shouldn't you have the same rights and benefits?

I own my home, but I'm not allowed to pour oil on the ground even though it would only destroy my own grass. I own my car, but I'm not allowed to remove the headlights and drive at night. Exactly where we place the limits is up for debate, but I think I conclusively proved to everybody reading this that there need to be limits the only question is where.

One distinction I see is between repair and modification.

If you own your car, and the headlight burns out, why shouldn't you be allowed to repair it back to the original factory state? Why should you be forced to pay someone else to do this?

If someone tries to argue that you're going to do it wrong, it seems like the onus should be on them to prove that your repair was bad and dangerous.

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