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Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

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Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#181

Post by pimmen »

coldtea wrote: post #136
i_am_proteus wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this sarcasm? While no authoritarian government can exist with no consent of the government, the PRC has no legal vehicle for citizens to disagree with the state.

Huh? If we're strict, it has plenty of avenues, including courts and elections [1]. They might be nominal, but legally they do exist and operate: [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

If you cannot vote for a different party that doesn’t share the values of the CCP, and can’t form one yourself, elections are meaningless rubber stamps.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#182

Post by nickik »

poukofiru wrote: post #98
tobtoh wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that Beijing didn't anticipate the resolve of the protestors, but they would certainly know about and endorse Lam's backdown. China is happy to play the long game - they apply pressure to HK to bring them inline with China, people protest, they back of a little, but not all the way. They wait ... then apply pressure again. The idea is that by 2047 when the 'one country, two systems' arrangement expires,…

That sounds likely. When Britain colonized Hong Kong, it took them more than 70+ years to pacify the people. Especially after the ‘67 protests, that resulted in 51 deaths. China is hoping the next generation will be more friendly. Like how the people of Macau are.

Based on what evidence did you come up with 70 years?

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#183

Post by annika9 »

steve19 wrote: post #34
AFascistWorld wrote: post #21

The whole world is in for a seismic shift, not just HK. Xi used the word "struggle (斗争)" 58 times in his speech yesterday at the Central Party School. http://xinhuanet.com/politics/2019-09/03/c_1124956081.htm - Another important thing is the collapse of Chinese pork industry due to African swine fever, unlike other monoculture diseases such as mad cow and banana Panama disease, it has no cure and prevention, it's doo…

A few months ago China banned Canadian pork on the grounds of forged export certificates (without specifying which exporter). It was seen in Canada as more retaliation over the arrest of the Huawei exec. Now they are looking pretty silly with vastly less pork being produced domestically.

Well as work in meat industry obviously everyone in this business know which Canadian plant involved. Canada pork exporters not 100% innocents and also everyone knows since June the Canadian pork just temporary banned.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#184

Post by guerrilla »

ethbro wrote: post #175
poukofiru wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds likely. When Britain colonized Hong Kong, it took them more than 70+ years to pacify the people. Especially after the ‘67 protests, that resulted in 51 deaths. China is hoping the next generation will be more friendly. Like how the people of Macau are.

If it wants the people to be friendly, it should probably start pumping a lot more money into jobs programs, addressing income inequality, and building a helluva lot of housing. Happy people don't protest as frequently. People who feel they have dim future prospects do. (Simply from a realpolitik perspective)

I agree and I find it kind of ironic that those so-called communists turned out to be more nationalist than the nationalists who are now the liberals of Taiwan.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#185

Post by vkou »

devchix wrote: post #114
jplayer01 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-violent protest thing seems like a myth that needs to be taken out back and shot, violently. We've seen for decades what they accomplish - absolutely nothing. It reminds me of this. https://theconversation.com/the-forgotten-violence-that-help...

This NPR podcast/article argues different. "...found that major nonviolent campaigns are successful 53% of the time, while violent campaigns are successful only 26% of the time." The Protest Tipping Point (podcast): https://www.npr.org/2019/06/25/736007317/the-protest-tipping... The Magic Number Behind Protests : https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/06/25/735536434/the-...

Was the Civil Rights movement in the United States violent or non-violent?

MLK may have been the face of it, but the man that really brought the government to the negotiating table was Malcolm X... Because of the implicit threat that if non-violent resistance won't work, here's a guy that is perfectly happy to have his supporters sit outside congress, armed with assault rifles, exercising their second amendment rights.

Non-violent protest often wins because the powers that be want to avoid antagonising the violent arm of the movement.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#186

Post by i_am_nomad »

rurounijones wrote: post #89
piker wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "You will never be hungry in China" Quite a bold statement, given China's recent history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine

I actually read it in a very dark way. Same as "You will never be hungry when you have some dwarf bread" (i.e you would be willing to eat anything else). Given the history and what starving people are willing to eat, the saying takes a pretty black humour quality

“Dark humor is like food: not everyone gets it.”

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#187

Post by AFascistWorld »

tony wrote: post #167
odiroot wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To my surprise I found Sun Yat-sen is still revered in China. He was one of the most important figures that helped to end the Qing Dynasty. Of course he's revered by communists.

But Sun Yat-Sen is the founder of Kuomintang, an adversary to the communist party. He's revered in TW too. Doesn't that imply legitimacy to the three principles?

He also received aid from the Soviet Union and formed an alliance. The CCP allows downplaying of Kuomintang, and he's not realy that revered in China, often described as extremely corrput and incompetent.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#188

Post by ww520 »

dirtyid wrote: post #2

I don't think Beijing anticipated or endorsed this. In context of Lams leaked resignation remarks yesterday, it looks like Lam is going rogue. She's setting herself up to be replaced via disobedience, because all signs pointed to Emergency Regulations Ordinance being invoked if protest continues. Her legacy is already ruined, but I think she doesn't have the stomach to double down that far. Beijing specifically instr…

It seems Beijing can go either way but are paralysis in making decision. It seems the people in charge are afraid of taking the responsibility for a decision and its outcome, and prefer no change. Well, sometimes events will make the decision for you if you don't act. Things are increasingly getting out of hand. Carrie Lam was going to take the fall anyway for the whole debacle so might as well she can make the decision now to back down and resign.

Hopefully it will lead to a real election to elect a leader that truly represents the citizens rather than special interests.

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#189

Post by spacehunt »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #24
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There objectively has been rioting going on and no government will accept to send the message that it is acceptable to throw petrol bombs or to ransack government buildings, or to use violence in general I believe most protesters would agree with that. The fear is authorities using riot laws against peaceful protesters. In this, again, there is reasonable compromise.

If I understand HK law correctly there are 2 offences: taking part in a an "illegal assembly" and "rioting". Rioting involves violence and I don't see the government budge on that. The fact that the protesters' demands mention a blanket amnesty and use the term 'riot' makes the demand unpalatable. Regarding illegal assemblies there might be leeway in how strictly people are charged, or whether charges are dropped in…

> Rioting involves violence and I don't see the government budge on that

No it doesn't. It's ridiculously easy to be charged for rioting. Here's the legal definition: http://www.hklii.hk/eng/hk/legis/ord/245/s19.html

Re: Hong Kong leader to announce formal withdrawal of extradition bill

#190

Post by BurningFrog »

autarch wrote: post #119
justaguyhere wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

each time, HK will lose a few more rights they used to have. Very likely. Sucks for HK people though :( Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests, for example. As impressive as they are, how long can Hong Kong people keep up this level of protests? Beijing can keep the pressure forever and play the long game

> Same story everywhere - nothing much changed after the Arab spring protests, for example. Except in Tunisia, which is the one success story from that time period. It's now a functioning democracy. Of course the real test is how it does over the long term, but at least so far it's an example of real change in the region.

Revolutions don't produce democracies.
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