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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#181

Post by mprev »

qfq wrote: post #160
davidw wrote: post #117

I loved the comparison to a submarine made of cheese: https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440?l...

>Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do. Leaving the EU is not a completely insane thing to do. The UK (and many other countries) have legitimate grievances about some things the EU is foisting on them (immigration for example) and the EU is giving them the cold shoulder and fining them if they don't comply. Labelling people who ar…

If "insane" is not the right word then perhaps "immature" is a better fit. Part of being an adult is understanding that most choices in life are compromises.

On balance, the UK is better in Europe, despite its human-made failings. Trying to achieve some impossible ideal, without understanding or acknowledging the realities, might not be insane but it's not the way the world works.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#182

Post by jerven »

gwbas1c wrote: post #112
ceejayoz wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The EU is a phenomenally novel way of integrating sovereign nation-states into a singular political entity, that happened without war. Not just without war, but between nations that've been regularly at war with each other (in various iterations) for well over a thousand years. It's a pretty remarkable achievement.

And some EU states still don't recognize each other. Just look at the 49.999 hz issue.

Neither Serbia nor Kosovo are EU member states. Serbia thinks Kosovo is not a country but a province/county of itself.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#183

Post by roywiggins »

qfq wrote: post #160
davidw wrote: post #117

I loved the comparison to a submarine made of cheese: https://twitter.com/hugorifkind/status/1072222230791229440?l...

>Theresa May was initially against building a submarine out of cheese, obviously. Because it’s a completely insane thing to do. Leaving the EU is not a completely insane thing to do. The UK (and many other countries) have legitimate grievances about some things the EU is foisting on them (immigration for example) and the EU is giving them the cold shoulder and fining them if they don't comply. Labelling people who ar…

If you want access to the single market, you have to sign up to freedom of movement. The UK was never going to be able to have one without the other because it's a fundamental principle of the EU as an institution. It's a package deal.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#184

Post by abalone »

m0zg wrote: post #161
abalone wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy Literally, no. The size of the margin is a direct factor in many democratic processes and determines how resilient the decision is to subsequent challenge. Major, foundational changes are rarely decided by simple majorities in one event. > You don't get a re-do just because you didn't like the outcome. To say otherwise opens yo…

Literally yes. Some elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes, and people accept the results. > You just called some referendums "bullshit" You're putting words in my mouth Cathy Newman style here.

> Some elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes

This is a basic "false equivalence" logical fallacy.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#185

Post by makomk »

rchaud wrote: post #159
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

> Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit Former PM David Cameron put Leave/Remain to a vote, but publicly said he voted Remain. Resigned after the vote results. Theresa May took his place after some debate; she was vociferously pro-Brexit, and looked like the best option if Britain was to act tough when negotiating with the EU. A number of people dropped out of the succession race, gambling that the Bre…

Note that the number of Tory MPs which voted against her in the 2018 no confidence vote (which was an internal party thing) is almost exactly the same as the number of Tory MPs who voted against her deal. Even though she survived that no confidence vote it apparently presaged doom for this deal.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#186

Post by [deleted] »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#187

Post by mikepurvis »

OscarCunningham wrote: post #156
mikepurvis wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real issue is that the people who voted "for Brexit" were all voting for different things, because it wasn't at all articulated what "Brexit" would look like. Now that that's better understood, there should absolutely be a second referendum, probably with three ranked options: 1. Stay 2. Soft leave (May's deal) 3. Hard leave (No deal) With months and months of nonstop coverage, one could now say that there's broa…

The newspapers will scream that ranked voting is a conspiracy of the liberal elite to deny the will of the people.

You're probably right, though that would be pretty funny, given that ranked voting would actually give the leave side a better chance since it would avoid them getting split.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#188

Post by scarmig »

m0zg wrote: post #161
abalone wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the size of the voting margin is somewhat irrelevant in a properly functioning democracy Literally, no. The size of the margin is a direct factor in many democratic processes and determines how resilient the decision is to subsequent challenge. Major, foundational changes are rarely decided by simple majorities in one event. > You don't get a re-do just because you didn't like the outcome. To say otherwise opens yo…

Literally yes. Some elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes, and people accept the results. > You just called some referendums "bullshit" You're putting words in my mouth Cathy Newman style here.

> elections right here in the US are decided by as few as a dozen votes

But Americans get a re-do every two years =)

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#189

Post by simonbarker87 »

itissid wrote: post #114
simonbarker87 wrote: post #47

I voted remain but I spend a lot of time with group of people who voted leave. Some of them have realised the leave campaigners basically had no evidence to back up their claims and so feel lied to but, sadly, the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. They want out at all costs because the “EU is telling us what to do”. Revoking article 50 would be a bad idea for civil stability but going through with it s…

> the others are just angry - and I mean really angry. Out of curiosity, how has "EU is telling us what to do" affected these people to make them so angry?

I wish I knew, I have asked and the best I can sumise is that their lives haven’t gone they way they hoped, the UK government has historically blamed stuff on the EU (a bit like someone blaming stuff on their manager to a customer) so they correlate the two “my life is not what I hoped because of the EU”, sprinkle on some patriotism (well I’m “British”) and the fear that 52/48 isn’t strong enough to see their “win” over the line and you get angry people. I could be way off but this is the best conclusion I have come to.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#190

Post by gweinberg »

robterrell wrote: post #97
albertgoeswoof wrote: post #29

Imagine if all the great minds thinking, discussing, reporting and debating brexit spent their time on solving real problems facing the human race instead.

Was Russian election interference a big part of this story? If so, that was money well spent.

The Russians allegedly spent 97 pence favoring brexit. Really. Indeed, they did get their money's worth.
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