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Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

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Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#181

Post by mchannon »

ddalex wrote: post #143
grecy wrote: post #98

The "unlock your phone" part is obviously a problem, and the focus of HN's attention. What gets me is an Officer can say to your face "You are not under arrest" but then handcuff you, take you someplace against your will, and detain you there without access to a lawyer. How can that possibly be the conduct of Officers in a free country? I could even understand if the Officer just plainly said "we can not let you boar…

> handcuffs and detention even though you are not under arrest is insanity No, it's kidnapping. Let the courts deal with it.

Speaking from experience, the courts are just fine with things like this.

Law enforcement don’t have to record their interactions with you, and it’s their word (a respected public official) against yours (a suspected criminal).

You may have heard of Mirandizing a suspect, but there’s an emerging phenomenon called Behelerizing. Tell the suspect they’re not under arrest (or claim you told them), even though you’re restraining them, and anything they say (or anything you claim they said) is ruled voluntary and admissible.

3rd world ain’t got nothing on Uncle Sam.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#182

Post by Tor3 »

User23 wrote: post #17
way2983 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before traveling, wipe it for the border crossing, and then restore once I feel safe? Save your encrypted system configuration/data on a service. Leave all your devices behind. Buy new devices on the other s…

Until a court rules that they can ask for your encrypted remote backup because reasons. And then hold you in contempt until you comply. This isn’t a technical problem, it’s a political one, which means it demands a political solution.

A lot of companies (US and foreign) will send encrypted laptop computers with employees going to the US, and the employees don't get the key. The key will be provided over the phone when, and only when, they arrive at their destination (usually a customer site), and if everything at that time is ok. This is simply to avoid having company intellectual property stolen (because that's what a copy will do). It's not contempt or lying to an officer if you really don't have the key, and even if you called home from the airport you wouldn't get one. This has been quite common for the last decade at least.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#183

Post by gumby »

mollusk wrote: post #138
dijit wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you me? Had a really similar experience until I said that “this is the cheapest rub job I’ve ever gotten” and winked at him. He didn’t appreciate that. Tbh I seem to be making it my life’s work to be a little shit at airport security. I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner which seems to be a huge point of contentenion. And, while not TSA, the Gatwick airport security were trying very hard to convince me that…

> I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner Genuinely curious, is there a reason for this, or are you just fucking with the security?

I don't know about the OP but I have hardware attached to my body that can't go through.

I also have clearly labeled liquids (for medical reasons) which by law I am allowed to carry. At SLC the TSA meticulously opened each one, ruining sterility so I had to discard the lot. Fortunately I got home safely.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#184

Post by Tor3 »

Macha wrote: post #180
philpem wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. I thought the experience I had with Gatwick was a one-off... :( These days I aim for London City or Leeds-Bradford if I can, Heathrow is my second choice, and I'll actively avoid Gatwick and Manchester unless there's no other alternative. I keep meaning to try Glasgow or Edinburgh for departures... I've flown into Edinburgh due to a KLM screw-up but never departed from there.

Manchester is the one airport that I will flat out avoid. It's up their with some of the worst US airports, and unlike those airports, has alternatives in reasonable distances. You can even see by the passive aggressive (and consistent device) signs in security "All electronic devices must be taken out. Small electronic devices are excluded. Failure may result in delays of up to 2 hours" that it's an institutional pr…

I've never travelled through Manchester. But I travel a lot, and what I do is simply to grab a bunch of trays, and add all my gadgets (and camera, if I have one) from the bag and put them on a tray. Including the little Kindle. There's no point wasting time asking. Sometimes (b/c this depends on the local rules of the country, and they change too) the security will notice and say 'no need, keep the camera in the bag', but if not, it does no harm. I don't remove my shoes unless there's a sign saying that I must. As my shoes don't have any metal in them there's never a problem. But I always wear simple shoes that I can just flip off in a moment, without bending down, just in case.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#185

Post by ataturk »

zachberger wrote: post #60
bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

I agree. I went through the TSA checkpoint at the United Premier Access this last Tuesday. They have the new automated bin return system. Some of the people who travel less frequently were leaving the bins behind instead of putting them in the machine to be returned to the front. The TSA agent shouted at them repeatedly, "do any of you read English? Can't you read the damn sign?" While he pointed at the instructions.…

What you fail to internalize completely is that we are lucky they let us travel at all. That's where we are as "citizens" these days. We keep giving up rights and then you want to complain when things like this take place?

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#186

Post by Tor3 »

philpem wrote: post #116
cronix wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back it up to the cloud and wipe it. Download backup on other side. Sure, officer, have at it .

"Why is your phone completely blank? What are you trying to hide? Give me your Facebook login or you're going nowhere. Okay thanks, but you're still going nowhere... and your flight just left. That'll be $2000 for a new ticket."

But a smartphone is not blank. What does 'blank' mean really? It's choke full of apps, whether you want them or not, from the factory. If you just use it to call with (as I do), then the only activity is a shortish call log.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#188

Post by jnurmine »

tony101 wrote: post #97
metters wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t have nexus or global entry I am sorry, not a native speaker. What is "nexus or global entry"?

NEXUS: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/nexus Global Entry: https://www.cbp.gov/travel/trusted-traveler-programs/global-...

I was texting with my phone while waiting next to a busy looking entry point at an airport in Canada; I was not going to the US, I was heading back to Europe.

An airport person asked me if I have a Nexus. Somewhat absentminded while texting, I said yes I do (my phone was from the Google Nexus line).

"Right this way Sir!", and I followed him for 10 meters.

And then at that gate entry eventually I pieced it together that my phone was not the Nexus they were looking for, excused myself and went away wondering why air travel seems to make me hypoxic.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#189

Post by flatb »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #171
cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might be the "internet tough guy" in me, but if I was travelling alone I'd ask the officer if I was under arrest, and if they answer no, I'd ask if I would be under arrest if I walked away. If the officer says yes, I'd get up and walk away (not towards a "secure area"), proceed to get arrested, and immediately ask for my lawyer, and would say no more.

This. Once you've already missed your flight they have a lot less leverage to get your to not stand up for your rights. At that point it's not like you have plans for the next 24hr (the flight was your plan and that ship sailed) so you might as well stand up for your rights, get "arrested", contact a lawyer and have a chance at getting a small "please go away" settlement in a couple years. Edit: changed words around…

Please don't give tough-guy "smart" advice like this on the internet. You're going to end up getting someone as naive as you into trouble.

I can guarantee that most any officer will charge you with 'resisting' or 'non-compliance' or some other fuzzy, indefensible legal charge just because you pissed them off by 'challenging their authority'. And now you missed your flight and have legal problems for what, to prove a point?

Here's some advice on what pretty much any officer will think in these kinds of situations: 'Oh, you want to make my life harder? I'll make YOUR life harder'. I know, it's bullshit, unprofessional childish behavior, but it's real. And believe me, he/she will win.

Be practical. Changing this stuff comes from legislation, not some brave grandstanding power-move that literally not even the rest of your fellow travelers will give a damn about.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#190

Post by seanmcdirmid »

Fnoord wrote: post #177
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to get searched all the time in Seattle because I was coming in from Beijing and must have looked suspicious or something. Anyways, I was never treated poorly in the red line by immigrations and customs. Just one point of anecdata, Seattle is a sleepy place and the airline staff is usually a bit nicer. I’ve never had to go through an extended customs search in another country, however.

> because I was coming in from Beijing > and must have looked suspicious or something Can it not be that you were coming from Beijing?

No, my Chinese colleagues on the same (direct) flights were never searched, just me.
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