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Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

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Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#171

Post by dsfyu404ed »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #165
grecy wrote: post #98

The "unlock your phone" part is obviously a problem, and the focus of HN's attention. What gets me is an Officer can say to your face "You are not under arrest" but then handcuff you, take you someplace against your will, and detain you there without access to a lawyer. How can that possibly be the conduct of Officers in a free country? I could even understand if the Officer just plainly said "we can not let you boar…

This might be the "internet tough guy" in me, but if I was travelling alone I'd ask the officer if I was under arrest, and if they answer no, I'd ask if I would be under arrest if I walked away. If the officer says yes, I'd get up and walk away (not towards a "secure area"), proceed to get arrested, and immediately ask for my lawyer, and would say no more.

This. Once you've already missed your flight they have a lot less leverage to get your to not stand up for your rights. At that point it's not like you have plans for the next 24hr (the flight was your plan and that ship sailed) so you might as well stand up for your rights, get "arrested", contact a lawyer and have a chance at getting a small "please go away" settlement in a couple years.

Edit: changed words around to make it more clear.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#172

Post by [deleted] »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #165
grecy wrote: post #98

The "unlock your phone" part is obviously a problem, and the focus of HN's attention. What gets me is an Officer can say to your face "You are not under arrest" but then handcuff you, take you someplace against your will, and detain you there without access to a lawyer. How can that possibly be the conduct of Officers in a free country? I could even understand if the Officer just plainly said "we can not let you boar…

This might be the "internet tough guy" in me, but if I was travelling alone I'd ask the officer if I was under arrest, and if they answer no, I'd ask if I would be under arrest if I walked away. If the officer says yes, I'd get up and walk away (not towards a "secure area"), proceed to get arrested, and immediately ask for my lawyer, and would say no more.

[deleted]

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#173

Post by maze-le »

throw2016 wrote: post #163

The fact that border agents can search your personal effects is totalitarian, not unlike the stasi and other authoritarian regimes. The fact that this is 'normalized' in a democracy is astonishing. This case also highlights the massive gap between civilized rule of law and what actually happens in these interactions, the dehumanization and arbitrary intimidation is not compatible with a democratic civilized society,…

> accountability is akin to a police state

Not akin, the US is a police state. If you have ever been in a real police-state (Brazil, Israel, Cuba) you will immediately spot the similarities. And the US is not alone, just the most advanced state of a former democracy...

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#174

Post by Fnoord »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #62
bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

> Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without attacking or belittling you. I agree. I am Canadian, but I went to school in the US. After school I returned to Canada. A couple years later I had a US work visa to train Americans on a particular technology that my company specialized in, and I was maybe the foremost expert in (outside of the manufacturer). I wasn't taking anyone's job, I w…

> But, there are good people in the CBP too... one saw what happened and came over and profusely apologized. He asked a few questions, apologized again, and sent me on my way. On the flip side, I've had my computers and phones searched by Canadian Customs and they've done so with tact and compassion, which seems to be much more effective -- it's amazing how much more cooperative people are when you treat them with compassion.

It doesn't even have to be compassion. Just get some people who either have compassion or can act as if they have compassion. Both work.

Judging by the stories I read here and elsewhere, the TSA seems to be some kind of organisation where losers end up, allowing them to vent their frustration about X or Y towards helpless, dependent people.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#175

Post by pasta »

bruceb wrote: post #22

The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of questions. The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had this experience a couple ti…

To me this sounds like complete lack of training.

At most airports when they ask questions they don't care about the answer because they are trained to observe you while you answer.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#176

Post by dsfyu404ed »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #70
hawaiianbrah wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Most people” seems like a bit of a stretch...

The "most people" actually comes from the part he left out... it's not just 100 miles from any border, it's 100 miles from any international airport, which does include most people.

IIRC the "100 miles from an airport" part was requested/proposed but never actually happened (presumably because the FBI gang didn't want the CBP gang on it's turf).

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#177

Post by Fnoord »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #155
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am American, living in Norway. I got searched while coming home from Amsterdam. Its OK, I understand, it is Amsterdam, after all, and they want to make sure I'm not smuggling stuff. And I pack very lightly, which doesn't help matters at all. I've never been treated so well while being searched. The guy was kind and polite and smiled a little. I also learned that in his opinion, Americans were usually pretty easy to…

I used to get searched all the time in Seattle because I was coming in from Beijing and must have looked suspicious or something. Anyways, I was never treated poorly in the red line by immigrations and customs. Just one point of anecdata, Seattle is a sleepy place and the airline staff is usually a bit nicer. I’ve never had to go through an extended customs search in another country, however.

> because I was coming in from Beijing

> and must have looked suspicious or something

Can it not be that you were coming from Beijing?

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#178

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

test1235 wrote: post #150
philpem wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had this at Gatwick last year... "Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell up!" At which point another passenger decided to take advantage of the confusion and tried to steal my phone... "God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?! Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!" Approached the airport, "we do not comment on security matters".…

just to clarify ... a member of gatwick airport security staff said that you? >"Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell up!" >"God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?! Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!" That all sounds so un-british I can't imagine this playing out. Which part of security were you in? I've flown through heathrow…

> That all sounds so un-british

Consider in your calculations that a queue was being endangered by the behavior they were complaining about.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#179

Post by jacobush »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #115
throwaway_45 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-

As someone who used to take about 50 flights per year for work, I’ve been abused by TSA officers of all races equally. Take your barely hidden racism somewhere else.

Their color is blue.

Re: Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport

#180

Post by Macha »

philpem wrote: post #107
dijit wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you me? Had a really similar experience until I said that “this is the cheapest rub job I’ve ever gotten” and winked at him. He didn’t appreciate that. Tbh I seem to be making it my life’s work to be a little shit at airport security. I will _never_ use the millimetre scanner which seems to be a huge point of contentenion. And, while not TSA, the Gatwick airport security were trying very hard to convince me that…

Wow. I thought the experience I had with Gatwick was a one-off... :( These days I aim for London City or Leeds-Bradford if I can, Heathrow is my second choice, and I'll actively avoid Gatwick and Manchester unless there's no other alternative. I keep meaning to try Glasgow or Edinburgh for departures... I've flown into Edinburgh due to a KLM screw-up but never departed from there.

Manchester is the one airport that I will flat out avoid. It's up their with some of the worst US airports, and unlike those airports, has alternatives in reasonable distances.

You can even see by the passive aggressive (and consistent device) signs in security "All electronic devices must be taken out. Small electronic devices are excluded. Failure may result in delays of up to 2 hours" that it's an institutional problem. iirc they had some distinction where being battery powered meant it was a small electronic device, unless it was an iPad.

Add to that usual airport inconsistencies like "do I need to remove an 8inch tablet?" from my bag. A 10 inch tablet is pretty universally required to be removed, but I've been instructed both to return my 8 inch tablet to my bag or to remove it from my bag and sneered at for getting it wrong, sometimes at the same airport.

Or let's talk shoes + TSA in the US: Some airports require them through the scanner, others will look at you like your crazy. This will often not be reflected in local signage.

But then threatening a 2 hour delay for not reading their mind is just dumb.

In my final visit to Manchester airport, apparently an 8inch tablet does count as a small electronic device but a PS4 controller does not. Therefore I was supposed to conclude from the passive aggressive sign that the tablet must be in my bag and the PS4 controller must not be in my bag.

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