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What was Syria like before the war

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Re: What was Syria like before the war

#181

Post by MR4D »

mattfrasernz wrote: post #145
easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.

I think there is a finer point to be made here.

For instance, the CIA couldn't care less about BP. Now, MI6 surely did. Rather, the CIA influenced action against Mossadegh because it thought he was a Communist.

Whether MI5 convinced the CIA that he was a communist threat is the more critical question. Some have thought that MI5 simply convinced the CIA of such a story to take out their own bogeyman while keeping their hands clean. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Of course, whether or not he actually was one is less notable than his association and support for those who were, as well as his nationalization of the oilfields (technically not the nationalization of BP, but close enough).

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#182

Post by losteric »

easilyBored wrote: post #166
mattfrasernz wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.

Name one Mid-east democracy right now that "we" would want to live in /where basic human rights are protected 1 1. Minus Israel....not that it fits my description.

So what?

1764 America was a subjugated colony of a monarch, I'd hate to live there. 1863 America was embroiled in Civil War, I'd hate to live there. 2017 America? Democratic global superpower, lots of room for improvement but I still love living here.

What about Germany? 1944 Germany was a fascist racist shithole. 2017 Germany is one of the leaders of the free world.

We don't control the past... shit happened, get over it. We learn, mature, and build the future.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#183

Post by losteric »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #178
easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

Democracy is working great in the US though, right?

Actually, yes!

Have you ever been on an ops-heavy software team? Change never happens until the right level of management feels pain. Politics of all forms is the art of managing pain. It's never perfect, and will never be perfect.

If you really care about this stuff, focus on the second derivative. The status quo doesn't matter, the present is too short to fix. The direction we're headed matters a little bit, but 300 million people take ages to change so that's a very laggy metric. What's important is how we are changing the direction we are moving in.

America has flaws, we feel pain, and now we're self-correcting :) Lots of change in the pipeline, Trump is a symptom of how bad it got and now good it's about to become.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#184

Post by brabel »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #178
easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

Democracy is working great in the US though, right?

Well, yes it is! Trump may not be the liberal, modern president you might have wished for, but compared to pretty much any non-democratic leader, and even many supposedly-democratically elected leaders, he's pretty good if you ask me (I don't support his policies, but he seems to defend his country's interests sincerely and honestly, something most people in the world wish they could say about their leaders).

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#185

Post by guilhas »

Syria was and still is beautiful and very rich in culture.

Just a pro-Assad post

Although it is a very complicated conflict, I would argue that most Syrians like Assad and not "just speak good because their afraid of the secret police". Just by looking at the videos [1] [2] which capture refugees voting, we can see genuinely excited people going to vote in someone they always believed. Even mainstream outlets had difficulty to capture otherwise. You can see in several places people talking like few would do of their own presidents. Obviously it was not the perfect country like every other, and there was people dissatisfied. But what the rebels want is not democracy, is Assad out. And Islamic law.

[1] Massive turnout for Syrian vote in Lebanon https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vgx6ZmWywM

[2] Syrians abroad begin casting votes in presidential election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyD61Q5KVNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXt5MhiPHas

Syrian to BBC Reporter: "You Are Not Telling the Truth About Syria" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjsjEJDMUk

Most Syrians back President Assad, but you'd never know from western media https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/syrian...

Syria: Damascus celebrates as Assad wins re-election https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zufjMn8Jf0

Dr. Bashar Hafez al-Assad wins post of President of Syria with sweeping majority of votes at 88.7% https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-e7W_INzbo

Syria Election Celebrations 2014/06/05 إحتفالات سوريا بفوز الرئيس بشار الأسد بالإنتخابات https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsgEJvAMt4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6jMxI16VAg

Video Pro-Assad used mistakenly by anti-Assad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X18sC1kCoK0

Pro Assad Rally - 03a - Aleppo, 19-10-2011 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3f9QB_z-_Q

Pro Assad Rally Damascus, Syria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsDP8S3ry1A

Millions attend pro-Assad rally https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNEFfdTNaqk

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#186

Post by Udik »

ashark wrote: post #175
Udik wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hope that the international actors- among which, prominently, the USA- have willingly fuelled a bloodbath for years for "realpolitk" reasons instead of having done that unwillingly, out of incompetence?

I hope that there's been some hidden benefit I'm unaware of that's so large it could from some point of view that's not simply insane or stupid justify fueling a massive immigration crisis in Europe, with all the consequences that've fallen out of that, and causing years and years of suffering and death in countries halfway around the world from us while in many ways strengthening the radical jihadist movement(s), ye…

Then it seems to me that you're missing a third option: the bloodbath has been fuelled for years because it benefits some of the players directly or indirectly involved; and there's no greater good that justifies what's happening, only gains of one party or group over the other. Which would mean it's not incompetence and it's not for the greater good either.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#187

Post by RandVal30141 »

adsfqwop wrote: post #78
RandVal30141 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound insane. "destabilize Syria" The regime did a fine job of that. No need for some construct behind the scenes where all blame can be assigned. "the narrative" Yes amazing how people on the ground in Syria have these words to say. Shame people spent so many years denigrating them as some narrative made up by George Soros.

Sure, burying your head in the sand is a strategy too. Good for you. Which people on the ground? You sound like you're getting your talking points from CNN. How about a reporter who has personally visited Syria and Aleppo herself? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueyWGyddepw You do not seem to be aware that there are terrorists operating in Syria that are funded by the west. Let's just start with that.

"Which people on the ground?"

Syrians from Homs, Hama, Aleppo, Deir ez Zor, Daraya :(, and numerous other locations.

"there are terrorists operating in Syria."

Yes, terrorists like the Assad regime and it's foreign allies like Hezbollah. You can thank Ru MoD for providing Hezbollah with heavy weapons like tanks, btw.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#188

Post by eveningcoffee »

gm-conspiracy wrote: post #179
easilyBored wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The saying is "A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch" By democracy I mean a system where basic human rights are protected and cannot be voted out. Would most Saudis, in a fair vote, allow for Catholic Churches to be open here? If the answer is no (and I think it is) then democracy is bad. Same for women rights, criticizing their faith, gay rights etc.

So majority rule is bad if you don't agree with the majority?

You may be interested to this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#189

Post by toyg »

euyyn wrote: post #171
toyg wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And even before that. A few examples: - Lenin famously had to ride a train through half of Europe to get back into Russia and stir up trouble. The involved countries knew very well who he was and what he was going to do (he was under surveillance, like most activists before and since), but they let him pass in order to help destabilise a neighbouring power. - Italian unification was aided by the British, which contro…

> - The Spanish civil war was heavily influenced by foreign powers, with Germany and Italy instigating and materially supporting Franco, the USSR helping the Republic, and everyone else providing covert support for this or that faction. There's a pretty high jump from "Hitler helped the rebels during the war" to "the Civil War was orchestrated and triggered by foreign powers".

If I tell you that I'll give you weapons and support "should you decide to rebel", am I "orchestrating" or "helping"?

Semantics.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#190

Post by toyg »

euyyn wrote: post #168
toyg wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can eventually "sublimate away" a hereditary ruling family; that's what lots of European countries have done. In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children. People tend to forget that Middle-Eastern countries are all pretty young from an institutional perspective. Before the mid-XX centur…

> In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children. Yeah that's not what happened in Franco's case. He appointed Juan Carlos to succeed him as King of Spain. Juan Carlos was crowned after Franco's death, and decided to turn the country into a democracy. So we got lucky in that sense.

For all of Franco's troubles, the conclusion was basically foregone when he appointed as heir a member of the royal family. Juan Carlos's father had long accepted an evolution into a constitutional monarchy should he ever regain the throne, as an inevitability; any smart person in JC's shoes would have seen the writing on the wall and would have acted in the same way, imho. I don't think it was luck, the forces in motion were already there; in a Cold War setting, a Franco-less Spain would have been subject to infighting between different franchist groups and would have suffered infiltration from Washington and Moscow, with the risk of a new civil war. A transition to a more legitimate government was the only way to reduce instability, it simply couldn't be done with Franco alive. South-American countries went through similar transitions at one point or the other.
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