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What was Syria like before the war

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Re: What was Syria like before the war

#161

Post by mpfundstein »

adsfqwop wrote: post #69
mpfundstein wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Syrian government torture and mutilate a 13-year-old boy and then return the body/proof to the parents ? Same with the current gas-bombs. What is the rationale behind this besides being pure evil? Assad made great progress in Syria and is pushing back ISIS and Al-Nusra. There was no strategical need for dropping gas but still, he apparently did... why would he? Doesn't make sense to me...

It doesn't make any sense, unless you realize that the deep state wants to destabilize Syria and dethrone Assad by force. Then suddenly the narrative we're being offered starts making more sense. And I stress the word narrative, as in "story".

Sorry for my ignorance but what is the 'deep state' . Never heard of it.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#162

Post by euyyn »

jl6 wrote: post #114
lefstathiou wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find interesting about the Syrian issue is that it is becoming increasingly clear that diplomacy, the UN, media exposure etc is failing. Despite this "humanitarian crisis" (which I fully agree is reaching crisis levels), my impression is that almost all the media outlets and pundits are ignoring the obvious solution to this problem... unilateral US military intervention (and before we go there... keep in mind…

What would such an intervention involve? Shoot the bad guys? Which are the bad guys and how do soldiers identify them?

If by the bad guys you mean only ISIS (and not Assad's or the rebel forces), that's what the people currently fighting there are doing. Why would it be harder for US soldiers?

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#163

Post by losteric »

easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

upvoted; I think you're wrong, but that is a position worth discussing.

Fascism and fanaticism are primitive modes of society, a stable society with extensive trade inevitably learns and matures towards liberal democracy.

The Middle East was making progress before the west destroyed stability in the name of exploitative exports and proxy wars. We are directly and exclusively responsible for the return of fascism and fanaticism. Violence only begets more violence; ISIS is just another head on the hydra, murder everyone and 3 more organizations will take their place.

The path to peace is deep and sustained economic aid, funding native education centers, rebuilding national identities, and facilitating mutual demilitarization... in addition to weening the west off of oil through deep investments in modern energy sources.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#164

Post by raphar »

Kluny wrote: post #8

Wow, I'd love to check this out but I got this message: "It looks like you're using an older device or web browser. Please update your browser or visit on a newer device." A bit of an odd thing to see when I'm on the latest version of Chrome on a Mac and it says "In partnership with Google" right under that. What gives?

I got this one too, but solved it accessing with FF.

I prefer migrating to FF rather than restarting chrome at this very moment. They lost a user.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#165

Post by euyyn »

mafribe wrote: post #117
ido wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but that wasn't my question - can Syria have something better than Assad eventually, and how do you get to it without overthrowing Assad?

One suggestion has been that Assad gets help with fighting ISIS on condition that he participates in fair, open, democratic and internationally monitored elections as soon as Syria is pacified. As far as I am aware this was discussed. I'm not sure (please correct me if I'm wrong) but I seem to remember that it was not Assad who rejected this scheme.

There's also the rebels, not only ISIS.

And what would be the consequence of him not complying after the fact?

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#166

Post by easilyBored »

mattfrasernz wrote: post #145
easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

Iran had democracy in 1953. The democratically elected prime minister was overthrown in a coup that was orchestrated by the CIA in order to protect the profits of BP. This isn't a conspiracy, this information has since been declassified. Look it up on Wikipedia. If there's any truth to your statement that the middle east "can't handle democracy" it's in no small part due to our interference.

Name one Mid-east democracy right now that "we" would want to live in /where basic human rights are protected 1

1. Minus Israel....not that it fits my description.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#167

Post by remarkEon »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #134
Danihan wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice of you to label everyone who preferes a more isolationist approach to global policy as a "troll" How open-minded of you.

'Isolationist' and 'anti-humanitarian' are not the same thing.

While I agree, it seems to happen quite often that the two are deliberately conflated.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#168

Post by euyyn »

toyg wrote: post #106
ido wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Current Assad is already the son of the previous dictator.

You can eventually "sublimate away" a hereditary ruling family; that's what lots of European countries have done. In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children. People tend to forget that Middle-Eastern countries are all pretty young from an institutional perspective. Before the mid-XX centur…

> In some cases (like Pinochet or Franco), the ruling dictator simply accepts there is no point in continuing and just dies away without bestowing the country on his children.

Yeah that's not what happened in Franco's case. He appointed Juan Carlos to succeed him as King of Spain. Juan Carlos was crowned after Franco's death, and decided to turn the country into a democracy. So we got lucky in that sense.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#169

Post by easilyBored »

ta_qwerty wrote: post #151
easilyBored wrote: post #142

For the record: I don't think that Mid-East is ready for democracy yet (the majority wouldn't support basic human rights IMO) so the biggest mistake was for the "West" to support the Arab Spring. Yeah, those dictators were bad, but they were predictably bad. Nature abhors vacuum and radical Islam is filling in. P.S. I don't care about down votes.

The time will come when Westerners stop pretending Democracy is more important than a roof over your head and food on the table. All the praise in the world for North America and Western Europe for managing do develop with democratic governments, but China, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore and others are there to show that prosperity reaches a broader definition than liberal democracy. Developing countries need growth, n…

The saying is "A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch"

By democracy I mean a system where basic human rights are protected and cannot be voted out. Would most Saudis, in a fair vote, allow for Catholic Churches to be open here? If the answer is no (and I think it is) then democracy is bad. Same for women rights, criticizing their faith, gay rights etc.

Re: What was Syria like before the war

#170

Post by mgbmtl »

temp_12345 wrote: post #27
123456789abcdef wrote: post #18

I was lucky enough to have visited Syria in 2009. I spent 3 weeks in Damascus. My impressions at the time: * The pepole were surprisingly westernised * Most younger people spoke great English * Alcohol was available, but limited because *most* people didn't drink (instead people socialised in tea halls) * Cheap oil meant that the taxi to the burger joint cost less than the burger did * The people were extremely frien…

Yeah, this mirrors my impression. It was unequivocally a controlled society : one simply didn't speak about the regime in anything less than absolutely glowing terms. The threat of the secret police was persistent. As far as the people go, your odds of being hustled in Syria were pretty high (but not any worse than, say, Thailand) - other than that I totally agree wrt the westernization and general pleasantness. I do…

I was in Syria in 2010 (backpacked around Damascus, Aleppo, Palmyra, also hitchhiked across the border from Baalbek/Lebanon to Homs). At the time, I found it rather similar to experiences in South-Eastern European countries around 2000 [1]: friendly, curious, cynical, indifferent, defiant, ambitious. You could feel something was about to change, but I never expected this :(

[1] I lived in Bulgaria 2003-2006. Sorry to generalize so broadly.

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