Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

backchannel.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 269 posts

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#181

Post by metaphor »

ACow_Adonis wrote: post #74
aaronchall wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the brick-and-mortar schools suggestion. I wrote this in favor of them: https://academia.stackexchange.com/q/14833/9518 > Students overwhelmingly report retaining and applying less from online courses versus face-to-face courses. > However, this may be due to a difference in factors other than distance learning. However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

Here's an interesting thought: do you find the notion/anecdote regarding the returned servicemen insulting? Because to me, he's applied an analogy describing a certain behaviour to both groups: but you find one "a political insult" and presumably one "an accurate description, or at least an acceptable anecdote". It appears to me, as a non-american, the analogy is not only apt but accurate, but i understand how one ma…

This veteran is in complete agreement with your assessment.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#182

Post by greggman »

I would love for more people to code and I would love for veterans for find work but ....

My impression is those who excel at coding (like everything else) love doing it. So, I would expect the majority to fail. It's doesn't seem like a skill like riding a bike where you learn it once and then it's just this thing you can pull out whenever (or maybe it just takes longer to get to that point).

My point is, whenever I see programs like this it appears the majority of the students are just going through the lessons. The moment the class is over they're back to whatever their real love is. They're basically learning by rote and it's a superficial learning not because they aren't smart but rather because they're disinterested. They're just doing it hoping to get a job, not to scratch an itch / pursue a hobby.

As such it feels like they're unlikely to ever become the kinds of people that actually get the jobs they're taking the classes to get.

Is there a way to solve that? Is there a technique to evoke a passion for coding in the majority of students or is it more up to the student to bring / discover their own passion? I know a bad teacher can ruin passion and interest. The majority of math and computer teachers seem to not really know what they're teaching and just teaching from a book. I don't know that a great teacher can spark passion an interest though. Maybe they can it a larger percentage of their students but that percentage will being small?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#183

Post by aphextron »

ma2rten wrote: post #91
aphextron wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

>Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

At a certain point I was working on an iOS app attempting to do some really advanced animations with Core Animation/Core Graphics and my total lack of geometry and basic algebra knowledge started to show. One of my colleagues started talking about the movement of an animation in terms of radians and pi and I felt completely lost. He was speaking a totally different language to me. Up to that point I had felt somehow "proud" of being a self taught developer with no formal schooling. But when that happened I just felt completely embarrassed at my lack of fundamental knowledge and context. Now I'm struggling through undergrad mathematics classes and hoping to get to that point some day. The greatest overall takeaway I had from that experience is that math and science open a completely different world to you that most people don't even know exists. It changed my life.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#184

Post by sirclueless »

kkielhofner wrote: post #171
narribbi wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a binary tree is just an algorithm, like there are so many. As a programmer, you have to design algorithms on the fly, quite a few of which may actually be harder than just balancing a binary tree. Algorithms emerge automatically from designing data structures; when you end up manipulating these data structures. In turn, data structures emerge naturally from trying to model particular problems. There are to…

Often times the right answer is (and should be) "show me you can find and use a use license-compatible library that typically has orders of magnitude more testing in the real world than something you feel the need to re-implement from scratch right now". The dirty secret is 90% of what happens in the real world (and on HN) is a solved problem that needs to be applied or re-applied. Someone has done it before and they…

There's a difference between "I know how to do this but it would be a buggy mess and require a week or two of effort, therefore I shall use a library," and "I don't know how to do this but this library seems roughly applicable so maybe it will work."

The former is a healthy and pragmatic use of your most valuable resource -- time. The latter is a cop-out. If no one actually understands what is going on at a deep level in the library, the result is likely to be an over-engineered mess. It might be that you're doing the most efficacious and appropriate thing for the task, but it might not. And with many such decisions made over the course of a project, some of them are bound to be wrong unless someone can reason about them and explain their purpose.

I find this is most important when refactoring or updating code. Some junior engineer down the line will encounter some code he doesn't understand, and track down the guy who wrote it, and at this point there is a world of difference between that guy saying, "Yeah, we needed a data structure that does X and Y so we used that library," and "Uhhh, not sure why we used that library, does anything break if you remove it?"

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#185

Post by discreteevent »

aphextron wrote: post #183
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

>Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education? At a certain point I was working on an iOS app attempting to do some really advanced animations with Core Animation/Core Graphics and my total lack of geometry and basic algebra knowledge started to show. One of my colleagues started talking about the movement of an animation in terms of radians and pi and I felt completely lost.…

Good to hear that you are learning some practical applied mathematics. It will be useful. You might find that the mathematics taught as part of a CS course is much less useful for 90% of programming jobs and not much use in the rest of your life either.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#186

Post by sirclueless »

crdoconnor wrote: post #168
taneq wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always baffles me when people say that algorithms aren't relevant to software development. It's like saying thermodynamics isn't relevant to engine design.

More like saying that knowing the atomic crystalline structures of metals isn't relevant to engine design.

Well, somebody better know the structure of the metals in use, or else you get turbine disks shattering jet engines and landing 1,000 yards away [1]. Just because it's not important to know every day doesn't mean you won't find challenging and important applications of undergraduate-level algorithm design.

[1]: http://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/dramat...

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#187

Post by j_jochem »

aphextron wrote: post #183
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

>Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education? At a certain point I was working on an iOS app attempting to do some really advanced animations with Core Animation/Core Graphics and my total lack of geometry and basic algebra knowledge started to show. One of my colleagues started talking about the movement of an animation in terms of radians and pi and I felt completely lost.…

To be honest though, that stuff confuses the hell out of me too and I have an MSc in CS from a highly regarded German engineering university. So while I agree with your general sentiment about depth of knowledge, basic computer graphics linear algebra stuff is just another skill that you learn in a similar way to a new language, for example.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#188

Post by detaro »

kkielhofner wrote: post #171
narribbi wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Balancing a binary tree is just an algorithm, like there are so many. As a programmer, you have to design algorithms on the fly, quite a few of which may actually be harder than just balancing a binary tree. Algorithms emerge automatically from designing data structures; when you end up manipulating these data structures. In turn, data structures emerge naturally from trying to model particular problems. There are to…

Often times the right answer is (and should be) "show me you can find and use a use license-compatible library that typically has orders of magnitude more testing in the real world than something you feel the need to re-implement from scratch right now". The dirty secret is 90% of what happens in the real world (and on HN) is a solved problem that needs to be applied or re-applied. Someone has done it before and they…

Followed by "show me you can debug and fix said library when we find it it's slightly broken for our use case"

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#189

Post by taway_1212 »

aphextron wrote: post #183
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

>Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education? At a certain point I was working on an iOS app attempting to do some really advanced animations with Core Animation/Core Graphics and my total lack of geometry and basic algebra knowledge started to show. One of my colleagues started talking about the movement of an animation in terms of radians and pi and I felt completely lost.…

A lot of the hardcore game developers (which use way more math and advanced CS concepts that most other devs) didn't go to college. This stuff is totally learnable on your own. I recommend for example "Essential mathematics for games" by Bishop and Van Verth.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#190

Post by metaphor »

grogenaut wrote: post #133
panzer_wyrm wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure that would even help. The current culture war on the elite campuses and the dominating narrative would probably not be welcoming to a lot of straight masculine males with somewhat conservative leanings and on government dime that participated in the US wars. And not be able to give them the environment and support to reintegrate them into society. Very shitty situation. The reason post WWII GI bill work…

Yes, god forbid we encourage mixing of world views because it might challenge both side's opinions of the other and gasp might even lead to some improvements. Lets continue to segregate as much as possible. Also according to wikipedia there has been a form of the GI bill running basically continuously since WWII, so this isn't a new change. What I think is hard about college for a lot of people is that much of the le…

>> Also according to wikipedia there has been a form of the GI bill running basically continuously since WWII, so this isn't a new change.

Would you be able to point out more precisely what you were referring to? I did not find such an assertion anywhere on the Wiki page[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.I._Bill

Post reply on HN