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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#171

Post by kkielhofner »

narribbi wrote: post #103
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

Balancing a binary tree is just an algorithm, like there are so many. As a programmer, you have to design algorithms on the fly, quite a few of which may actually be harder than just balancing a binary tree. Algorithms emerge automatically from designing data structures; when you end up manipulating these data structures. In turn, data structures emerge naturally from trying to model particular problems. There are to…

Often times the right answer is (and should be) "show me you can find and use a use license-compatible library that typically has orders of magnitude more testing in the real world than something you feel the need to re-implement from scratch right now".

The dirty secret is 90% of what happens in the real world (and on HN) is a solved problem that needs to be applied or re-applied. Someone has done it before and they've done it better than you will.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#172

Post by giardini »

This is nuts. Only a small percentage of people can learn to effectively generate code. Thinking that veterans can be turned into developers is absurd - they'll get code-monkeys instead, with a few exceptions.

I don't believe that, at this time in the USA or in the future, education will save people in software development from unemployment. The only thing that will do that is having some smarts. And if you're smart, you already know what to do (for you). One of those things to do is head _away_ from software development if you're a noobie. At this time there are more developers worldwide than ever before, work continues to be offshored and developer wages are declining in the USA. You'd almost have to be insane to try to get a job writing code.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#173

Post by eropple »

Swizec wrote: post #104
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

I use my CS knowledge all the time when building webapps. Not directly of course, but as a general feel for things. Stuff like "Oh hey, this problem fits a state machine approach" and "I can reduce the complexity of this sprawling if statement by making a truth table and minifying stuff" And the good old "What you're asking for maps onto so and so problem and is fundamentally unsolvable. Can we tweak the requirements…

Agreed overall--I find that there's a real lack of appreciation of the sort of structural, high-level knowledge that I (at least) learned while getting a CS degree. And not a particularly good one, either, just something at a middling state school.

Just being able to look at a problem and go "hey, this is pretty simple graph traversal, I know the rules for this" has saved my bacon. Or the type theory that I picked up along the way that made type-heavy programming in Scala and Rust make sense. Or the set theory (math, but required for my CS degree, so I count it) that does bounce through my brain when I'm thinking about databases. Or even, like--"hmm, I think I can bang out a quick and dirty parser," and knowing what that parser should look like because I've studied how programming languages work and I get that for free.

I'm not the best programmer ever to walk the earth by a long shot, but I'm pretty good, and I'm pretty good because I can approach problems both bottom-up and top-down. Couldn't do both, flexibly, without a strong academic background.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#174

Post by gopalv »

ma2rten wrote: post #91
aphextron wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

> Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

Not a veteran, but I've noticed something very odd about entry level jobs - they're not challenging. And that is no accident someone hiring you is actually doing that with a clear expectation that the complexity you're about to encounter will fit into their schedules.

Higher education is very different - the professors are intentionally trying to push you, hopefully bit-by-bit out of the existing skill range into unknowns. At least mine weren't trying to teach me, they were trying to get me to learn, mostly by making my own stupid mistakes without a huge penalty attached to it.

When I moved out of my CS course (and my open-source work building compilers) into my first job, the skill required to do my job satisfactorily was trivial.

No more hard problems, just hard timelines.

Took a couple of years and changing jobs before again landing up with a problem I didn't know how to solve ("Uh, make PHP5 fast ... Go!"), which helped me grow and learn.

That was a lucky break, but I succeeded because my professors had pushed me into the deep end against my wishes (i.e more sleep) before.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#175

Post by arjie »

telchar wrote: post #152
whb07 wrote: post #100

I have a couple thoughts on this subject as it directly applies to me. In many ways the G.I Bill is a coupon thats worth up to $22,000/year + (monthly cost of rent for every month in school). Many vets end up using the GI Bill just for the monthly rent check (for SF its like 4k/mo). I am a strong believer in freedom of choice and personal responsibility. If I earned that GI Bill i should be able to spend it where I s…

From a civilian perspective, hypothetically speaking, why should we continue to fund the GI Bill if it's just going to be wasted? In a world where too many of the veterans get fleeced and get nothing for the money it would be rational for the rest of us to cut that benefit, perhaps replacing it with nothing or with a difference benefit like a larger pension. Personal responsibility is important but it doesn't exist i…

Because it's a deal. They go to places they can die and in exchange you're going to give them this.

It's like if you were spending your salary on drugs and gambling. A poor use of your time but poorer justification to cut your salary. It's your money at that point and it's not up to me to cut your salary on that front.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#176

Post by arjie »

grogenaut wrote: post #140

I guess another question I have is what is a coder camp doing that it costs more ( http://www.bootcamps.in/san-francisco/coder-camps/ ) $9,900 for a 9 week (just over 2 months) course, when in state tuition for a year at University of Washington ( https://admit.washington.edu/costs-and-financial-aid/total-c... ) is $10k for around 7 months and out of state is $34,791 for the same time. Eg are they really equivalent t…

No one at the university is going to get a job after one year. Something like App Academy has access to companies and provides you with access to recruiters.

Secondly it's the rapidity that's an advantage. The fact that they're nine weeks is an advantage. You have to value your time.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#177

Post by spc476 »

nradov wrote: post #160
spc476 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I wouldn't expect physicists to have disdain for engineers. Then again, any discipline that has "science" in its name probably isn't.

Where is the disdain?

The professors' contempt of computers? In a computer science department? I mean, it wasn't math I was majoring in ...

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#178

Post by tluyben2 »

ma2rten wrote: post #91
aphextron wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I worry that if the GI Bill was extended to code schools, we'd see the exact same thing happen again. This is dead on. I am a veteran currently going back to school for an engineering degree on the GI bill. When I got out of the service I didn't even consider going back to school, and just taught myself how to code and started working as a web developer. Once I made it to the point of working with other software en…

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

I benefit from my degrees but I would find it annoying if I would get asked questions like that. I design (among other things) crypto algorithms for banking purposes and implement them in a plethora of languages including ARM asm. But balancing a tree? I did that in an exam on paper 22 years or something ago. I would be able to do it given enough time but I probably would just walk out. 20 odd years ago when I was a cocky and already quite experienced coder, I would have done it easily but, although already having done many real life projects, I was a crap coder. And, due to the strangeness of the market and the scarcity back then, my current freelance salary in Europe, is not too different from what it was then. My feeling is still that those questions are pointless unless you want people straight out of uni. And then they already did their exams with those questions, so again pretty pointless...

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#180

Post by meheleventyone »

narribbi wrote: post #103
ma2rten wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people think that most developers don't actually need CS (and much less math) fundamentals in their every-day work life. That's why coding interviews like big tech companies tend to do are controversial ("Why would an iOS developer need to able to balance a binary tree?"). Can you give some examples where you hid road blocks because of your lack of education?

Balancing a binary tree is just an algorithm, like there are so many. As a programmer, you have to design algorithms on the fly, quite a few of which may actually be harder than just balancing a binary tree. Algorithms emerge automatically from designing data structures; when you end up manipulating these data structures. In turn, data structures emerge naturally from trying to model particular problems. There are to…

I like your post and just wanted to add on top of this that some algorithms including those sometimes asked in interview questions take/took months or years of effort to come up with. You chase down blind alleys and have insights along the way that come from being deeply immersed in a problem. Which is why interview candidates change these "tests of problem solving skill" into tests of knowledge by cramming.
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