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Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

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Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#71
post #40
post #21

I don't see the need for Code Schools. Folks can learn almost anything using the resources of the internet. Provide the vets with books on coding for a specialized curriculum for fee and give them some specialized job prep. Many places would love to hire Vets.

Quite frankly, if a person has any sort of formal education in their background such as college or even taking coding classes in high school, they are then entirely unqualified to offer such an opinion. It may be easy to learn new languages online due to having learned the foundations, but unless you can say you learned all the foundations online, this type of comment isnt helpful. As many others have mentioned learn…

I'm speaking from this perspective, I dropped out of school and barely made it to my CS classes. I learned on the job through internships and resources online.

You can test the vets on the knowledge and grant them special certifications that can single out the ones who ha ve tested out of the curriculum.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#72
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been self teaching since before online was a thing, and the materials available online today are vastly better and more complete than what was available pre-web. You could just as well argue that someone isn't qualified to offer an opinion if they didn't teach themselves to program from photocopied systems and hardware reference manuals. (That's the way some of us did.) There can be advantages to a formal…

The problem with self-teaching is that you don't know what you don't know, so you don't realise where the gaps in your knowledge are. There's quite a difference between programming, in the sense of knowing how to put (say) Python code together, and being a professional developer. The latter should include a whole extra set of analytical, algorithmic, social, and professional skills. In practice it may not - but it do…

And then there are those with sheep skins that still can't program FizzBuzz.

I even had professors in computer science that hated using computers and could barely conceal their contempt of them.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#73
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have been self teaching since before online was a thing, and the materials available online today are vastly better and more complete than what was available pre-web. You could just as well argue that someone isn't qualified to offer an opinion if they didn't teach themselves to program from photocopied systems and hardware reference manuals. (That's the way some of us did.) There can be advantages to a formal…

The problem with self-teaching is that you don't know what you don't know, so you don't realise where the gaps in your knowledge are. There's quite a difference between programming, in the sense of knowing how to put (say) Python code together, and being a professional developer. The latter should include a whole extra set of analytical, algorithmic, social, and professional skills. In practice it may not - but it do…

Of course there are tradeoffs. I'm not arguing that self-teaching is necessarily ideal or preferable. But both the article's premise (or at least the tl;dr people are taking away from the headline...the text is a bit more nuanced) of "can't do code school therefore can't learn to code" and the assertion that someone isn't qualified to comment on self-teaching if they have an education are ridiculous.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was general medical officer in the Navy, among other clinic duties, I did exit physicals for sailors, sometimes 20 a week. I would always try to talk to them about their plans for the future. Some seemed to be squared away. But I can't tell you how many times someone told me their plan was to take online classes from some sketchy school I'd never heard of. I'd google it with them, it would be some online unive…

I agree on the brick-and-mortar schools suggestion. I wrote this in favor of them: https://academia.stackexchange.com/q/14833/9518 > Students overwhelmingly report retaining and applying less from online courses versus face-to-face courses. > However, this may be due to a difference in factors other than distance learning. However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

Here's an interesting thought: do you find the notion/anecdote regarding the returned servicemen insulting?

Because to me, he's applied an analogy describing a certain behaviour to both groups: but you find one "a political insult" and presumably one "an accurate description, or at least an acceptable anecdote".

It appears to me, as a non-american, the analogy is not only apt but accurate, but i understand how one may find it insulting.

But then, I also understand how a returning veteran might find this entire thread/idea insulting when applied to them.

But in both cases...that doesn't make the point deviate or approach the truth any more or less.

Personally, I believe there is a "rational voter paradox" at play in both of our societies political cultures (I'm australian for what its worth).

We find certain ideas insulting and degrading when applied to the notion of "voter", because we carry a political ideology of sanctity (the rational voter) around the voters decision. Because we are partisan, any attempt to analyse voter activity that draws away from the rational automatically puts you in the camp of "the other", which makes you an enemy, which makes everything an insult.

Hint that voters voted for trump because they were anxious and threw their lot in with someone giving out soothing epithets and its an insult.

That same idea however, returned service men being anxious about the future and being duped into throwing their lot into schools that make grand promises...and its an observation. Even a completely legitimate thread.

I've had the same thing happen to me a few times: express what I think is a fact, and been told that this is not the place for such hostile speak, insults, or comments.

I will leave HN today with this thought from my professional experience: If you're an analyst, and you actually have to predict these things, don't give anything but politeness to the people who find such observations to be insults, even though you know they're wrong, and use them if they're predictive :P

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#75
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many, if not most, software jobs require very little CS knowledge. At such jobs the ability to compare numbers and read a chart (a matrix of algorithms and data structures vs. time vs. space complexity) will cover almost every possible use case. "Mid-level development as a skilled trade" jobs, for example.

And yet, most software jobs interview for CS knowledge. Maybe there should be code camps for interview CS knowledge.

[deleted]

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#76
post #47

However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. Sorry, I disagree. It's time to start calling out these people and holding them responsible for their actions, which affect us all. Voting for a demagogue needs to carry a heavy social cost, or nothing will change.

How dare half the nation have a different political opinion than I! It's time we put their feet to the fire! /s HN is a great place to talk tech, startups and entrepreneurship. However I'm not really interested in HN's thoughts on policy, policy making, or governance. I'd rather discuss these things who study them, are in those fields, on a forum expressly for that purpose.

What about those of us on HN who think you can't just segment fields like that?

I can't stand startup and entrereneurship talk.

I'm on HN because its a place that attracts smart people that talk about a high diversity of intellectual topics with a common ground of tech experience. These days its often the high-tech savvy community from whom the experts in those other fields are likely to be found. (and partly why i'm here). And at the very least, I would argue you can't separate tech in any meaningful way from policy, policy making, society or governance.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#77
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Politics is a mind-killer. If you think this is so then don't talk politics. But if you're asking us to be Good Germans that's not going to happen.

Shoehorn your politics into conversations all you like. That's why we have downvote buttons on HN.

So, it's OK for the Trump crowd to "shoehorn" their politics into every inappropriate venue they can find -- for example: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/at-fda-tvs-now-turned-to-fox-new... -- but the remaining 74% of us are expected to remain on topic at all costs. Do I basically have your position correct here?

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#78
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many, if not most, software jobs require very little CS knowledge. At such jobs the ability to compare numbers and read a chart (a matrix of algorithms and data structures vs. time vs. space complexity) will cover almost every possible use case. "Mid-level development as a skilled trade" jobs, for example.

And yet, most software jobs interview for CS knowledge. Maybe there should be code camps for interview CS knowledge.

Yes, and most of those interviews are terrible.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#79
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the brick-and-mortar schools suggestion. I wrote this in favor of them: https://academia.stackexchange.com/q/14833/9518 > Students overwhelmingly report retaining and applying less from online courses versus face-to-face courses. > However, this may be due to a difference in factors other than distance learning. However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

> However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. I read it without placing the emphasis on the colon and I'm sure it's less barbed and strengthens the point: They are like [the] Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are. That there were some, not all, trump voters who were actu…

As OP, I would like to hereby adopt your reading, but it's beyond the edit window to fix directly. Alas, I hereby leave this as my mea culpa.

Re: Thousands of Veterans Want to Learn to Code But Can’t

#80
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree on the brick-and-mortar schools suggestion. I wrote this in favor of them: https://academia.stackexchange.com/q/14833/9518 > Students overwhelmingly report retaining and applying less from online courses versus face-to-face courses. > However, this may be due to a difference in factors other than distance learning. However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary.

> However, I find your insult to Trump voters gratuitous and unnecessary. I originally upvoted the OP's comment as I somehow missed this aside at the end and unvoted. HN is really not the place for that stuff...

As OP, I would like to adopt dpwm's restatement:

> They are like [the] Trump voters willing to throw their lot in with whomever tells them "it will be okay", regardless of how unscrupulous and incompetent those promise-makers are.

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