New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary • Hacker News Board

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#181

Post by adrr » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:01 PM UTC

josho wrote: post #154

adrr wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was true you couldn't disclose salary it would make lots of things really difficult like getting a loan.

It sort of doesn't matter if it's legally true, it's an easy out of the question which is the goal. If the other side pushes harder you can simply assert that's your reading of the terms of the contract and you aren't about to risk breaching your contract. Even better, after stating the above use it as a segue-way into them disclosing the range, e.g. since I'm not a liberty to share, perhaps you can tell me (the sala…

I'd highly recommend not lying a hiring manager.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#182

Post by louisswiss » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #171

louisswiss wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with you in principle (your previous deal with company A is absolutely none of company B's business) but I would like to challenge you on one point: > I'm placed at a disadvantage in negotiations if I name a number first. ... This is unlikely to be true. Generally, in price negotiations it is advantageous to name a number first. This is known as anchoring and basically the theory is that the end result is bette…

Anchoring only works in this way if there's no definitive market value for what you're selling. I know what a software architect commands in my geographic area. If you come in asking for 1.8x that, you're off the table as a candidate immediately (which you mention in the next point). No amount of anchoring will change that.

Agreed. More likely, however, a software architect commands a range of salaries in your area (eg 80-130k with a few outliers either side). As an 'average' performer in this scenario, you would do well to anchor your 'value' at 120k and let them make excuses why 105k is more reasonable. The alternative (let them anchor you at 90k and then you have to explain to the recruiter why you are worth 15k more) will be trickier in most cases.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#183

Post by sitkack » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #172

jnwatson wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anchoring only works if the potential employer is ready to buy. Many, many organizations will simply use the number as yet another filter, and you won't even begin discussions. By giving a number first, you're either too high and you won't have an opportunity to sell yourself, you're too low and you've literally already negotiated against yourself, or you're lucky and right at their expectation, which you could have…

This is why we publish salary ranges with our job ads but also require a desired salary within that range from candidates.

If only the rest of the industry was so mature.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#184

Post by lend000 » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

There's a case to be made for an employee protection preventing an employer from firing an employee for refusing to produce pay stubs from a past employer. However, I've said it before -- preventing a question from being asked is state overreach and constitutes a violation of the first amendment, in my opinion.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#185

Post by clavalle » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #180

clavalle wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I never consider interviewing and negotiations a waste of time. As an employer, I do. I once made the mistake of spending a lot of time interviewing a candidate assuming that their salary expectations would be around market rates...they weren't. This was years ago and it chaps me a bit to this day that I made such a rookie blunder. I won't make that mistake again. I ask for a range right off and give one in return.…

If it's such a big deal to employers, and they don't want to waste their time, why don't they name a number first? I won't object.

I didn't at the time. I do now.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#186

Post by mi100hael » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:02 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #127

scarmig wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone run into issues for sharing a current salary that anchors the discussion too high? I could see how an employer might pass on a candidate who's actually interested in the job, just because they know they can't match what the candidate is currently making and it's likely a waste of time to spend hours evaluating someone who's making 50k more than what you could ever offer. Or is this purely theoretical and n…

For me, all the time. I've negotiated well throughout my career, so I'm above a lot of pay bands. My concern is I hope to be doing this for another 25 years...

If you're at the top of employees, it might be time to become the boss...

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#187

Post by jowiar » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

louisswiss wrote: post #135

pmoriarty wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never consider interviewing and negotiations a waste of time. It's very valuable practice, no matter what the outcome. Practice is how I get better at both. The more interviews I go on and the more times I negotiate salary, the better I get. Also, even if a company can't hire me at the moment due to real budget constraints, they might be able to do so in the future, or perhaps one of the people I interviewed and im…

I agree with you regarding interview and negotiation practice being valuable (albeit to a certain extent - sometimes negotiating with certain tech companies/recruiters is like wrestling a pig in a muddy field... after a while, you realise the pig is enjoying itself). I also don't think salary is everything - far from it! Yet I've never had a problem saying "I believe my market value is $XYZk, however if the culture,…

One thing that's super important in this is to know your market value. Regardless of whether you like your job or not, it's absolutely worth dipping a couple toes into the water every year or so, just to get a feel for what your skillset is worth. Doing this when not actively seeking a change takes off a lot of the pressure for a move when you are looking for a change.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#188

Post by gregmac » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #136

jimparkins wrote: post #20

Have a google for: "can i lie to a employer about past salary" - it really really messes with people - people feel super uncertain about how to approach this situation. Throwing any confidence they have during the negotiation out the window. Even now I hesitate to write this as a million people will come out and say never lie - what if they found out. More than banning. There needs to be acceptance that if someone as…

Interesting. An additional argument for lying is that you're probably already lying in other parts of the interview. Why do you want to work here? (money, and the desire to pay the bills and feed my children) Where do you see yourself in 5 years? (probably not at this company) What is your biggest weakness? (not like I would actually tell a stranger a real answer)

If these are honestly your answers to these questions and you in fact give lies as answers, you sound like exactly the type of person I absolutely hate working with and actively try to weed out during interviewing.

To anyone reading this new to the industry, there are absolutely legitimate ways to answer these questions without lying.

> Why do you want to work here? (money, and the desire to pay the bills and feed my children)

That is a given for nearly any job. If it's your only reason you want to take this particular job, it tells me you have zero passion for your work. The people I know who are like this are what I'd describe as "9-5" employees, don't learn anything outside of work, and basically do the bare minimum at everything.

I want to work with someone that's at least somewhat excited about the job they're going to be doing, and bring some energy, new ideas and actually care about doing a good job. It's the difference between a day labourer and a craftsman.

> Where do you see yourself in 5 years? (probably not at this company)

So? That's fine. Is anyone hiring with the expectation or even desire their employees stay for 5 years?

There are many good ways to answer this, but it's definitely not "doing the same thing as today, with the same technology stack, tools and level of knowledge".

> What is your biggest weakness? (not like I would actually tell a stranger a real answer)

This is kind of a crappy interview question, but there are decent ways to answer it [1]. They are not asking for your deep, personal failings, but for your weaknesses as they apply to the job at hand.

[1] https://workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/66620/which-ow...

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#189

Post by ryandrake » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:04 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #121

kesselvon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies asking for your previous salary means theyre going to try to pay you with your past salary being a benchmark to work with, not necessarily what the position is worth. Companies posting employee salaries publicly aims for employees at said company to be paid at the same level (with similar experience). There's a subtle difference. Every time I've been asked about salary its been an obvious ploy to lowball my…

Employers ask for your salary to make sure it makes sense to talk. Everyone mentions it to be lowballing you. But what do you think happens when you mention a higher number than they expect? While it sometimes will end the conversation (because they're unwilling to pay), sometimes they'll match that, leading to a higher salary than what the offer would have been. Of course, often, including in big companies, the back…

It's a classic negotiation problem.

From the employee's point of view:

If you specify a number, you have either A) disqualified yourself due to it being too high or B) set a cap on your potential salary (they may have been willing to pay more). Neither scenario represents upside for you.

From the employer's point of view:

If the company specifies a number, it has either A) disqualified itself due to it being too low or B) set a minimum that it will have to pay (candidate may have been willing to accept less). Neither scenario represents upside.

Re: New York City bans employers from asking potential workers about past salary

#190

Post by mi100hael » Fri, Apr 07, 2017, 4:05 PM UTC

krenden9 wrote: post #167

jimparkins wrote: post #20

Have a google for: "can i lie to a employer about past salary" - it really really messes with people - people feel super uncertain about how to approach this situation. Throwing any confidence they have during the negotiation out the window. Even now I hesitate to write this as a million people will come out and say never lie - what if they found out. More than banning. There needs to be acceptance that if someone as…

I totally lie any time a recruiter asks for my current/past salary. How much I lie depends on what I think I should be getting for the role, and how likely it is that they can and will confirm the numbers I gave. At my most recent past job, I was working for some guys at a small startup for next to nothing in salary (~$40k). I had a 10% stake in equity, but it was worth nothing, since the company was in debt. When I…

There is 0 chance any past employer is going to divulge compensation details of a former employee to some random jackass recruiter that comes calling.